Data for Rebalancing DPS

[roadkilz]

@Scott

crit chance increase (by drinking a crit potion) makes the shaman and scoundrel dps scale differently

While that’s true, it’s also true about any other boosters like Int potions etc… I assume that in the experiment none of the participants took any pots and all the classes still had their base effects and would’ve still had a level of Int and Crit appropriate to their class applied to damage. That said, it would’ve been good to record their stats at the time for consideration.

not representative for max performance for those classes

I don’t know why that really matters here since the numbers are averaged across 5 people in each class and they’re pretty consistent. Additionally, for the exception of ranger Rapid Fire and mage casting, which depend on the speed and accuracy of the player, all the other max DPS for each class is limited by the pacing of the mechanics. Rapid Fire was severely crippled and doesn’t compare anymore to the Precision (limited by pacing).

[Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka]

@roadkilz

That said, it would’ve been good to record their stats at the time for consideration.

I’ve got all the Int/Str scores recorded on a separate sheet, but even after taking those into account, it didn’t make any significant difference. No potions were used in these runs, although I plan on doing this all again with full potions after my shoulder recovers from all those provokes!

[NotScott]

@roadkilz

While that’s true, it’s also true about any other boosters like Int potions etc… I assume that in the experiment none of the participants took any pots and all the classes still had their base effects and would’ve still had a level of Int and Crit appropriate to their class applied to damage.

Intellect and Strength if both are used will give all 4 dps classes an equal boost. Some only need intellect to boost their dps, others need strength and Intellect. So those don’t need to be noted for the test between classes. Because they have no effect % wise for the difference between the 4 classes. They both boost damage types by 8.33% (best potion version which is 250 points = 8.33%). So if you are a mage your Int potion will boost all your spells by 8.33%. If you are a scoundrel Int will only boost your cards damage by 8.33%. But drink a strength pot only and you will get 8.33% for your normal bullets, but your cards don’t get 8.33%. Together Intellect + Strength only 8.33% boost for scoundrel. Which is the same as mage.

@roadkilz

I don’t know why that really matters here since the numbers are averaged across 5 people in each class and they’re pretty consistent.

Not really consistent. I know the people who ran the tests were failing on their class dps on some tries because of a bug (shaman totems breaking), or just failure in general. I know this because I myself made big mistakes (or bugs) multiple times on multiple runs that were recorded. Which sometimes doesn’t happen in a fight for some players. Depending on how good they are and how they feel that day.

@roadkilz

That said, it would’ve been good to record their stats at the time for consideration.

@Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka I think he meant things like armor re-roll of crit chance + projectile damage + used rings? Because they can also make a difference together with weapon and weapon affixes.

[roadkilz]

@Scott

Together only 8% boost

Yes, i understand that and agree with you, but all classes also have criticals even unboosted. However, mages get more advantage from the boost to their consistent damage not relying on lucky swings. I don’t play shaman or scoundrel so you can correct me if i’m wrong but i imagine that even with a full crit loadout and critical pot it would still be really difficult to have every crit deal maximum possible damage. So in the duration of the full fight, it would average out and still not come close to covering the 30%-50% difference we’re seeing displayed above.

Not really consistent. I know the people who ran the tests were failing on their class dps on some tries because of a bug (shaman totems breaking), or just failure in general.

Yes but all the classes were tested in the similar time frame… don’t you think the other people had similar experiences? I mean of course the data would be much more interesting if we had a much broader population size but i don’t think Mishka could handle it

I think he meant things like armor re-roll of crit chance + projectile damage + used rings

Yes, sorry if that was unclear, i meant all the stats shown in the player panel as well as armor/weapon damage/crit affixes

[NotScott]

@roadkilz

However, mages get more advantage from the boost to their consistent damage not relying on lucky swings.

I am guessing you are talking about the sad truth that ranger has one out of X arrows being a way bigger hit (the charged shot), so luck plays a bigger role in critting that hit. Ya, but other then the luck of bleed on that hit, crit damage luck will not make a huge difference. Mages do not get more advantage by hitting more often. Their affect of lucky crits is less noticeable on their dps from fight to fight. But luckily they have plenty of other random crap like how perfect a single spell is cast that affects their dps fight by fight.

I just did some checks on my dps calculator and these are the extremes in dps between getting crits on every charged shot and not getting crits at all:
Average: 100% (not giving away numbers now xD with the charged strikes potions and max crit chance + max crit damage possible of the ranger)
No charged shots crit: 93% (worse case scenario ever)
All charged shots crit: 115% (Best scenario ever…)

These extremes average out to the 100% mark how longer the fights are. On the scale on a whole shard it is probably always around 100%. Not more, not less. And a single boss fight might typically fluctuate a few percent up or down the 100% mark.

[roadkilz]

Interesting. I would be really curious to take a look at that calculator privately if at all possible

Anyway, thank you for the good discussion I do think that there’s definitely balancing that needs to happen in a lot of the classes and hopefully this will drive some of that forward

As far as ranger boosting, I personally think that instead of a flat 66% boost across the board for ranger specifically it should be boosted scaled to distance. Meaning that at 0m the current damage would only increase by say 30%, at 20m it would increase 66% and at 40m it would increase by 90% (in addition to existing distance modifiers).

And we none of us want this to ever happen again

Ranger spam isn't that fun

I play ranger, and I really enjoy it, but to maximize my damage I’m expected to shoot 3 shots a second, and it’s the goofiest thing to behold in real life because there’s no quiver to grab from. It’s like playing an accordian at high speeds rather than using a bow. To help make this feel a bit more fun, why don’t we have to grab a new arrow from behind our backs? I wouldn’t suggest having to “grip” it, but perhaps reaching back and holding the trigger will “hold” an arrow until you release it.…

[NotScott]

@roadkilz

Meaning that at 0m the current damage would only increase by say 30%, at 20m it would increase 66% and at 40m it would increase by 90% (in addition to existing distance modifiers).

Mmmmmmh, maybe. I do think you should not reward any ranger past 30 meters though. Because alot of fights, shard affixes and healer skills really force the ranger to stand closer. If not done gives everyone trouble. Not the ranger only. And if you would get more dps by shooting for the stars (50+ meters away) there will always be people doing that xD. But again you would make the whole party angry and depending on the dungeon/fight not even possible to do that. Making ranger even more situational specific handicapped. I think the 30 meter talents are already accomplishing what you want, to be honest

[roadkilz]

@Scott

But again you would make the whole party angry and depending on the dungeon/fight not even possible to do that.

haha yeah that’s a very good point change that to 30m

[Game_Master]

I’d like to thank you for putting this stuff together and everyone who contributed to the undertaking, it’s always super helpful to get more data in everybody’s hands (including ours) and we appreciate it.

I can’t speak on how this would or will impact any balancing decisions going forward, but it’s certainly better to have practical numbers and the more players involved the better it definitely is to get the accuracy of them and something we can evaluate in an easier way.

[Taki_S]

@Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka

Didn’t realize I wasn’t going to be the only one without a +6 for the tests but feel like I did well for my runs.

[Sessavon]

While this topic is up, I’d like to make a comment on how broken mage is in pvp. While fireball spam is absolutely ridiculous blocking entrances to caves, there’s an even bigger problem in that it only takes 2 greater afflictions to kill a player. I see far too many mages in battlegrounds that land a greater affliction, hide, then land another one. It’s impossible to fight as it’s basically a strong poison effect that lowers your defense. Considering mages control where their spells land, it’s hard to dodge a stream of fireballs or a greater affliction. I don’t mind if they keep their dps for dungeons, but something needs to be done about combat. I’d suggest a magical defense on gear alongside the normal armor stat.

[ChaseChair]

remember, gear doesnt matter in battlegrounds.

[Sessavon]

Right it’s been a while since I’ve battled because I don’t like mage dominated battlegrounds so I’ve forgotten a lot… perhaps a built in resistance to magic then. Anything to balance mage pvp.

[Xenocider]

Mages are incredibly easy to kill in pvp
They are weak and only few are good short range
All I can say is get good ig

[Bucky]

i 100% agree with this i am a mage so take my words with a grain of salt but most paladins that i see that have an idea of what there doing can pretty much kill any dps classits only sort of iffy from what ive seen with scoundrel and mage since scoundrel very mobile and mage being mobile if played correctly and scoundrel can also get mages if you hop behind them a lot or double hop

[Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka]

These numbers were all gathered for the purpose of aiding in the rebalancing of classes for PvE.

PvP is another matter altogether and should probably get its own thread.

[Xenocider]

Let’s say you buff ranger by 66% in PvP god have mercy on everyone

[Burnator]

Would probably put it closer to what it used to be… pvp ranger is not a strong class. cant self heal or remove poison, it needs to hit with specific shots to do visible damage, and looses all dps in close range.
Seeing as its impossible to keep a good distance in pvp (and most enemies solo) a major drawback.

slightly better then the immobile shaman and glitched warrior in pvp, but not by much.

Paladin is broken for reasons unrelated to dps

[Xenocider]

I definitely agree with you on this
The only reason I can get 30+ kills with ranger in PvP is I’ve learned as soon as they teleport shoot there and do your best to move as much as possible (which doesn’t work a lot of the time)
Now why I made that joke about the PvP buff with ranger is because currently, I can two shot cloth players

I also agree paldin is really broken
While they aren’t too hard to kill, there is practically no way to get away from them
Even if you do teleport, they will just use their hammer

[Virgil]

Thanks for putting this together. I’m a recent returnee to the game. Played hardcore before Reborn then took a break. Ranger was my main and the class I loved.

Now I’m back and I’ve noticed that my ranger’s dps is complete garbage when I compare it to one of my other dps classes. It takes my ranger twice as long to kill a target than it takes me on shaman or mage. A big part of this is because the mobs close the cap instantly and my dps drops to almost nothing. I want to be rewarded for long range shots but this comes at the expense of doing bard dps when solo.

I’ve been losing hope in the game over the last few weeks because the class I enjoy the most is just not competitive at all for dungeons and is even worse in solo. It does give me hope to know that devs plan on looking at balance later this year. I really hope it happens sooner rather than later.