Dev Blog: Talents System Preview -- Warrior and Ranger


#41

Ok so say you’re at Mutated Worm, you have all 5 globes, and then a minion pops up next to you so you start shooting to take it out. After 1 shot you’d have 4 globes, 2 shots you’d have 3 globes, until they’re all gone. With globe keeper, as long as you’re on target with the close range target, your globes decay slowly over time instead of on hit, kinda like they do now when you stop firing, and it takes a few seconds for each globe to decay.


#42

I have to disagree with you on this, I would take BoM 8 out of 10, if you know how to tank a boss, an extra damage buff can make things go faster. To be honest, at the moment I barely need to use my ultimate to charge back my shield, as it is possible to time it perfectly, and thus I would personally mix the templar and berserker talents, I would probably use this combination:

Rage - to deal extra damage with wounds

Improved Stun - the whole team can deal extra damage for 2 seconds, not just me

Improved Rush/Intimidate (not sure about this yet :smiley: , but probably Improved Rush) - probably I would go with rush, because of mobility, intimidate only if I’m 100% sure I can get through the boss without mistake

Blessing of Might - it’s not the shield that’s going to protect you, but your experience and the teamwork.

As you can see, for maximizing the damage output for a group fight, it’s not just “oh, let’s go with berserker”, or “oh I’m a tank now, I’ll be a templar”, you will have to consider your team composition, the skill of your team and your own, and mix’n’match the talents based on that. If I would run with a less experienced team, or a new dungeon, I might take a full Templar route, and yes, for soloing Berserker is the winner, but it’s more complicated than that in my opinion.


#43

Hear me out here… but what if we made rapidity just take off the arrow cap…


#44

A lot of this is honestly kind of disappointing. It’s almost always going to result in someone just picking all four talents from one path and a lot of them are “When fighting humanoid enemies and you’re playing with your left hand you do 3% more damage for 2 seconds”. It was built up as large modifiers on the classes mechanics.
The warrior talent that heals you when you use your horn and the one that creates a shield, those two are pretty great. They give new play avenues to explore as well as build on your chosen role (tank, dps). The DPS talents hardly seem noticeable in comparison. The ranger ones are a bit better, especially the sniping path. Even so, considering we only get 4 of these they could stand to be a lot more impactful.


#45

@Riley_D

I agree. I imagined Snipe shot, especially with the talent designs, to bring it to parity with rapid fire. But Rapid Fire talent has several talents that increase it’s damage. Meanwhile Snipe Shot talent tree get’s zero damage talents other than being able to generate globes faster (but only because they are firing slower).

Improved charge won’t matter unless you are leveling for the most part or you force people to take this talent because you start designing content around talents which will also be problematic.

Arrow Sight seems to be questionable since the entire point of Snipe shot is for slower firing accurate shots to be more accurate because they are slower and more precise shots naturally, not drawing back an arrow for 2 seconds to get aim assist only to ruin your Precision talent which you are obviously taking in this case so your damage falls even further below rapid fire.

And then there’s how Rapid Charge doesn’t work with Arrow Sight so you can’t even fire a projectile path assisted shot quickly which makes mixed matching questionable. Of course this is because you designed each path with synergy in mind but one has more damage and the other one…only brings it to a level below that while adding a short duration slow.

When people asked for parity between precision firing at a slower pace vs spamming, they were looking for damage to be equalized so either style worked at the core, and then talents would allow you to do new things as a ranger, rather than reinforce a playstyle. Especially without favoring damage for rapid fire over precision. Nobody will play precision if it means less DPS.

I agree. If someone wants to try a different playstyle in a Dungeon, now they have to go to Highsteppe?

I mean, what about Guild City? Can we get some practice dummies and vendors right outside the Guild City house? Or a respec person before this update comes out?

That still doesn’t solve the problem that people want to be able to switch classes or talents on the fly, or at least not have to travel to Highsteppe and back just to switch or try things out. I understand the Dram cost though I don’t know how expensive it will be. But for testing purposes, making it cost more and more only makes it harder to figure out how well each talent is working from the get go.

I also think this is poorly worded. I think highly rated means rapid fire shots, and I think instead of them decaying as fast as they do now below the minimum range, they simply decay X seconds slower so you don’t lose damage as fast. But this is kind of useless for how rangers play right now anyways.

How is Precision dealing as much damage as Rapid fire which * gives additional bonus damage as long as you are firing shots very quickly without pause*? Either Rapid Fire is not even as good as it seems because its hard to fill the gauge or both talents are kind of crappy because both talents require “up time” which means they only kick in a fraction of the time and fight with how you are also firing your special arrows which break up the rhythm.

Plus you aren’t factoring in that Multishot benefits rapid shot more unless you didn’t explain how its adjusted for both styles.

Again how does Multishot work? If I am firing 3 arrows per second, doesn’t this mean I have more chances to get multishot off and therefore I can benefit more from this consistently than firing at 1 shot per second? How much damage are the empowered arrows doing? How is the damage scaled compared to a normal attack in both styles?

At the end of the day I think I was just expecting more from the Talent Tree even though that might mean more than just stat boosting/damage boosting.

While I do not think ranger spamming should be a thing, I think Rapid fire style should get other types of benefits. Such as for example, a talent that increases proc rate so it double downs on the rapid fire style and thus synergizes with affixes more. At the same time I felt that slower firing play styles should have naturally gotten a damage boost so that slower shots deal more damage equal to rapid fire shots so people can shoot at any speed they want. Then you open the entire Ranger talent tree to more:

An ability that lets you deal bonus damage the further away you are.

An ability that lets you reduce minimum globe distance.

An ability that starts you at max globes but you lose all your globes if you miss once and have to recharge it. Stuff like that which isn’t playstyle centric.

Or abilities that modify special arrows.

Or abilities that synergize with other classes like a Runemage that can levitate people into the air temporarily and Rangers get a damage bonus from high ground.


#46

@Riley_D
In reference to the development time of systems like this vs entirely new classes, you have to consider that adding depth to existing classes will make the game more fun, while new classes will give it more variety. You can’t play more than one class at once, personally I’d like more depth before we get more variety.


#47

Can’t wait, this gives depth and individuality to the players of the game. Love the ranger talents.

Would like to see a physical space talent for ranger … meaning since this is a vr game, if I crouch irl I should become stealthed or hidden and gain an additional buff like a 10% increase in damage to stealthed shots… after stealthed shot you become ‘found’ so you can’t spam crouched shots.

Hopefully we can get more arrow options or better yet craft our own!


#48

Actually, one might consider that rushing to friendlies should be part of the tank class already. Seems part and parcel to the whole class’ schema.


#49

When reading through this thread I am baffled by the posts claiming that “no one” or “every one” would choose this or that. I think most of us have different expectation to the game, and what we find most fun doing in it.

I am still just a novice only a few hours game time. But I am looking for the experience of exploring a whole new world, and everything I can do in it. Maybe when I get hundreds of hours in game all it comes down to numbers, again, as is with most other mmo… :frowning:

I sertenly do not hope it all boils down to numbers in this game as well. I hope the VR-component will open for more diversity, and personal playstyle. And the possibility to enjoy the game without neccesery be the hero on the front line. Hopefully when the player base is large enought, some players can even go all-in craftmanship.

As to the cost and restrains to change talents, I would like it t be more expensive and or difficult to change. Make our choises mean something. That way I would feel more authentisety to the in game world. There is no quick-save-load in MMO’s thats what makes so exciting all our choises mean somthing.

Again I would like to take out a short story from my early WoW-career:
I was questing as usual and I got my first purple-epic-drop in the game. I was really happy getting it, even tho I did’n need it (shadowblade-thigy-dagger, and I was warlock) I ran to the auction house. Thinking “I’m going to be rich!” I put it out there for 10G! To my suprise it was sold in only ten secounds… And resold for 150G…

The point in this story is that I could not do anything about it. Whats done, was done. I made my chois. It still is a strong memory even tho its ten years ago. That is what I want in this game as well, make memorys and enjoy the game, now in a whole new way with VR.

As to the topic at hand, I really looking forward to the talent trees. I’m sure they will be tweeked and re worked in time.

And of course, this is only my opinion. Love to be able to participate in this amazing game.


#50

I mean, both add more variety to the game, and therefore more fun, if that’s what makes the game fun for you. However, the point about only being able to play one class at a time is certainly one to consider, most players aren’t going to have 2 or 3 classes that they are actively playing.

It seems like some people came in the with the expectation that the Talents system was going to lead to full-blown subclasses, which was never what we intended really…however, maybe that’s a direction to consider going in long-term with the way the current class system works. Warrior, Runemage, Ranger, and Musketeer as the base classes, and then each has several sub-classes in addition that have their own gear, weapons, and very different mechanics. That way you aren’t having to level from 1-20 just to unlock each. But that would be a much larger project than what this was, for sure.

As I’ve said, at this point we’re happy with this as a starting point, we’ll be watching and learning from how the community uses and adapts to these, and we will be making changes to the mechanics and the balancing of each to get it to where we want it to be.


#51

EDIT: didn’t read to bottom of thread. Obviously these suggestions don’t fit into the shot term sprint style, and would be longer term goals.

My suggestion is in line with @Chris_M1 They should play noticeably different. One path which enhances their current role and another path which gives them an alternate play style.

Warrior Alt: Standard tank enhancements for one path, then equip 2nd weapon in place of shield for the other path. Replace bash and horn with different gesture. Either 2nd sword, or a static axe which can be swung or thrown.
Ranger Alt: Trickier to change. I’d suggest one for DPS increases, another focused on improved traps (control) and weakening effects (armor expose, lowered damage output, slows)
Musketeer: One path to improve what it does now, granting 2 new orbs (that only this path gets). Another to significantly improve DPS along with 2 new orbs for that purpose.
Mage: DPS path with a new spell which applies an effect on the target improving the damage of subsequent fire spells and a new ritual spell which can apply a longer lasting damage buff to a target. Could be personal, or targeted (game balance issue for targeted). Next would be a support path. Add a healing spell which applies an effect on the target. If cast again before this falls off, the subsequent healing spell is reduced (prevents spamming to outshine musketeer predictable refresh healing for game balance). Then a new ritual which could put a longer lasting version of mana shield on everyone in the area at once. These new spells and new rituals would be mutually exclusive.

This would fix having too many healers in a regular group by allowing musketeers to DPS. It would fix having too many tanks in a group allowing warriors to DPS. It would fix (or mitigate) not having a healer allowing a runemage to fill that role.

Some people hate breaking up the “trinity” approach. Others love it. This still does nothing to increase the number of available tanks though. A controller/debuffer ranger could allow for improved exp grinding / farming without a tank to some extent I suppose.

Anyway, my 2c. Radically different take on how to approach the talent system. It sacrifices class uniqueness in order to improve group composition flexibility. I’d also suggest that changing between roles be relatively simple if this approach was taken.


#52

I see it the same way. I’m someone who likes to take his time. Personally I am not a fan of arrow spamming. I prefer to take my time and shot precise. Therefore I would like the sniper path to give you a damage boost. Still the damage boost should not be higher than the damage the rapid ranger does because it is more work to fire that often.

I do not think so. I think that a lot of players will mix those up. I certainly will.


#53

This is the way I feel about it, you can always do some crazy optimalised way of playing but in the end what matters is if you enjoy it. I would surely choose a fun build whatever others choose to do, it feels bad that nothing has been tested but people are already calling some talents “rubbish”, I am sure if it really is bad or finds little use (the talent that is) the devs will change it accordingly, however we have to start somewhere.


#54

Thanks Devs, these are some fun ideas and i’m pleased to see you listening to players and giving Warriors a nice looking DPS tree in the Berserker. The Blessing motion is a nice addition to a warrior’s arsenal and gives them a unique group buff which will create some interesting mechanics - it sure would be nice to pop in from the 25 yard line for a 10% buff while my precision arrow charges up! It encourages co-ordination between team members and gives a team a reason to bring a second warrior into the fray! Blessing of protection is a great defensive option, though it would be nice to see some base amount of shield to the group the way Blessing of Might has incorporated so it could be used proactively before big AoE or after an Improved Rush to a party member. Even if that’s at the sacrifice of some self healing.

Improved Rush is also great - warriors were missing some sort of “intervene”, especially in PvP, and this gives them that mobility and an additional gap closer as a tank. Being a Ranger main, this makes me excited because on bosses like Sentry the group won’t be punished for standing at orb range.

As for Ranger, I’m not sure yet what to think. I do have some reservations but most of them have already been detailed here - a 2 second slow vs a full second every rotation of extra DPS seems like an easy choice at level 20 unless you’re more into PvP. The thing is, I don’t see a “pvp tree” inherent in these builds so it would be nice if the decision was a bit tougher to make for someone entering TM with their group. My suggestion would be a reactive talent - rather than activating a predictable outcome and rotation, do something like “Every time you fire an empowered arrow/precision shot, there is a chance to fire a free, off-rotation precision arrow.” A sound/visual effect would occur to signal the arrow was ready and you’d fire it the same way. I like this sort of thing because it rewards experience and keeps the rotation more exciting than simply FCFS, and still leaves another option in the 1 second predictable reduction in Charged Shot which is pretty nice also and easier to master.

Globe Master seems to me like something slower firing Rangers should simply get inherently, since they’re firing less arrows in the same timeframe. It effectively means they take longer to ramp their DPS up than rapid fire rangers do, and on fights where you are constantly moving or losing those orbs and rebuilding I could see that being frustrating. In tandem with Globe Keeper, it just seems to me like something a rapid fire ranger would never take interest in since there’s a direct benefit to being able to keep some residual damage when forced to clump up on a boss or otherwise lose your buff.

The thing is, I can see how this would all rack up beautifully. Without knowing the actual numbers when Precision Shot refers to “increased damage”(These numbers are present elsewhere in the talent tree) we can’t know if the snipe shot tree is an elegant, low rate of fire utility tree with comparable damage, or a solo level-up tree that doesn’t compare to the raw output of Quick Shot builds at high level. I prefer to assume the former, even as someone who’s more interested in Quick Shot.

The only criticism of a single talent on it’s own comes with Arrow Sight. Especially at 20, most Rangers are working in a situation where the hitbox of meaningful targets is usually pretty darn big. Not only that, but because every arrow has a tracer behind it, after your first shot it’s pretty easy to hone in your next shots. If the intention is to have some fun solo talents, I can see this paired with Globe master being a really strong opener that would be fun to play with, either leveling or in PvP - getting that big, max range shot is nice - but for DPS it’s just not really meaningful. Most fights are a minute+ in length, and the only time i’d see this as beneficial is on my opening shot, which most Rangers rarely miss since they have time to line it up while the tank positions and builds aggro.

All in all, this is a really nice first look at what you folks have planned for us. The choices that don’t seem like they offer obvious DPS boosts are still interesting and it’s nice if the philosophy is to share the fun with players who aren’t just grinding endgame content. Without numbers on certain abilities i’m content to simmer in anticipation of what’s to come on the 19th and look forward to what you reveal next!

As always thanks @Riley_D for being so active in the thread and sharing your design philosophy and the various aspects of this we may not always key into right away. As we all know this level of involvement is not always possible/the norm and we’re lucky to have your voice in the mix.

Edited: I forgot to add in a suggestion for Arrow Sight, since I was most critical of that talent. Trying to think of something juicy that would make it tough to choose between that and multishot… A small AoE component, on either a special arrow or proc on normal arrows like multishot would be nice and spice things up. If you’re going more for that “opener” style of ability, keep Arrow Sight exactly as is, and give it a misdirect. This would promote Rangers as the initiators and even though it would be a small damage boost it would have potential to add some nice utility to the group. Sadly I imagine this would be a more complex endeavor and you’d need a way to first designate who in your party the transfer would fall on. I’m sure you have a bunch of other interesting ideas about where to go in the future, but if i’m going to complain I may as well offer some ideas.


#55

Will there be a preview of the Mage and Musk talents? Are those coming out separate from the Mar 19th patch?


#56

It’s all coming out the same day, there will be a preview of those later this week.


#57

Will we get any preview on the fisherman gear? :smiley:


#58

Just wanted to add that you should make the Arrow Sight just work on Charged Shots.
I say this because if you to get the 1-second Charge Shot, it would make the talent almost useless.


#59

Some immediate feedback before I dive into an analysis of these talents: This synergy between collumns seems too high, and leads to less actual choices as a player. If two talents synergize really well, and I want one, I’m just wrong as a player to not get both then, meaning I now I have one less option.

Templar

So even with what I just said above, i’m glad that Warrior is getting more clear options between DPS / Tanking

Righteousness: Your Provoke combo heals you for a small amount.

I’m hoping that small amount doesn’t equal a irrelevant ammount. If this can allow for a Warrior to sustain themselves in what should be a low damage enviroment (Out in the world, small 2-3 pack pulls) then this is awesome an i’m glad to see it added, however i’m afraid that it will be such a small amount that it won’t actually change the outcome of a battle

Improved Stun: When an enemy is Stunned by your Shield Bash, they also take 5% increased damage from all sources for 2 seconds.

5% for 2 seconds is laughably nothing. For a game that had a 30s cooldown cheat death, it’s odd to me how weak this is (30s cheat death is insanely short for a cheat death cooldown, in WoW cheat deaths can feel overpowered at the 3 minute mark). 5% for 2 seconds might be a total of 0.5% gain over the duration of an encounter, less if nothing big even lands in that 2 second window.

I think the duration is what feels the worst here, but 5% and 2s both just seems nearly insignificant

Improved Rush: Your Sword Rush ability can store up to two charges, and can also be used to rush to friendly targets.

This is a talent I actually really like. This could be useful for both DPS and Tank, The extra mobility will allow a Warrior to have much more reliable control over creatures. The extra charge will also allow for some burst damage from Sword Rush. Good talent.

Blessing of Protection: Raise your sword high into the air, gaining a temporary shield which will absorb damage equivalent to your currently lost health, for up to 5 seconds. Can be used once every 60 seconds.

This is another talent that I like, as long as the effect happens quickly. If you have to hold up the sword for a long time to get the effect then it makes it less likely to be effective in saving you from an dangerous moment. My gut instinct here is that it should be tied to a more binary trigger (Hold you sword up and press grip / trigger) so that the effect can be much more snappy.

Shield Spike: Your Shield Bash causes the enemy to become weakened to your sword attacks and Wound combos, taking 25% additional damage, for 3 seconds.

Berserker

Rage: Your Wound combo causes the target to bleed for 15% of the damage dealt over 2 seconds.

15% buff to Wound seems like an okay buff. Not really that exciting, but is better than the 5% for 2s talent.

Intimidate: After using your Sword Rush ability, gain a buff which increases your Critical Strike chance by 25% for 3 seconds.

Another okay buff talent. 25% is large enough you should be able to actually feel this in combat.

Blessing of Might: Raise your sword high into the air, granting a boon to yourself and nearby allies which increases your damage by 10% for 5 seconds. Can be used once every 60 seconds.
Ranger Talents

10% / (5/60) = This is a 0.8% overall gain to your group. In a 3 minute encounter this talent would save you only 1.5 seconds. This seems very unexciting for a final talent slot.

Snipe Shot
I was happy to see this is how you guys are looking to differentiate gameplay between the talent options, however in general I don’t think that the difference between a shot every 1s and a shot every 0.3s is the difference between a sniper and a spammer. This feels like Fast Gameplay vrs Unhealthily Fast Gameplay (to the point where it may actually cause injury if you are trying to shoot this fast constantly)

Globe Master: Your can generate up to three globes at once when firing at long distances.

This seems like a ramp up reduction talent. I’m worried this is going to feel like auto-reload felt to me in Raw Data, where if learned and mastered a mechanic, and then a unlock invalidated that learning, and made me question why auto-reload was included or why wasn’t it baseline. Why teach a game mechanic that gets removed via talents later.

Improved Charge: Your Charged Shot applies a 2-second, 35% Slow effect to the target.

Small utility gain. 2 seconds feels like it’s too short to matter. The large issue I have with this talent is that the talent it is paired with is a strait up DPS increase, while this is just a slow. If i’m a DPS player, why wouldn’t I chooise the DPS option.

Arrow Sight: When drawing back your arrow for 2 seconds, gain Arrow Sight, which shows you the projected path your arrow will take.

This is another small utility gain, allowing for you to for sure hit that long ranged shot. Again the worry is the option this is paired against being an actual DPS increase. This talent shouldn’t even come into play with the max level talent saying you should fire every 1s and not every 2s.

Precision: Unlocks the Precision Shot Indicator, which allows you to do increased damage with precise timing and careful aim.

This is good, but I think careful aim and precise timing =/= shooting every 1s. I think every 2s and always getting the aim tracker would feel much better.

Quick Shot

This spec is unhealthy.

Globe Keeper: The globes that you earn for firing highly rated shots last longer before decaying at close range.

I’m afraid this is just a intro to the fight start talent, once things get close then you aren’t getting those highly rated shots anymore.

Rapid Charge: Your Charged Shot charges in 1 second instead of 2 seconds.

Charge shot should be charge, not spammed. I don’t like this at all. It is also paired against a slow, Maybe some damage reduction or a heal would be a comparable option to pair against the slow.

Multishot: Every time you fire an arrow, you have a chance to fire an additional empowered arrow.

Why is there a talent that just strait up increases damage paired against a talent that might make it so you can hit a far target, but not actually increase overall damage at all. I also don’t think the bonus for spamming arrows should be…more arrows.

Rapidity: Unlocks the Rapid Shot Inidicator, which gives additional bonus damage as long as you are firing shots very quickly without pause.

This isn’t fun. I know there are some people that think it is fun, I worry for their wrist health.


#60

Another thing to note.

Is the Multishot talent going to interfere with the 3 arrows/second and do 1 damage on one of the shots?