Dynamic Scaling

Reborn Beta
#1

Not a fan of the dynamic monster scaling in the world. It’s great in dungeons. In the world, you never get to feel powerful. If you can go back to the starter area at max level and get destroyed because your gear is underleveled… It just doesn’t feel good. I didn’t like it in Guild Wars 2 either. Personally I feel like it makes leveling irrelevant.

Even a less contrived example. I’m level 1. I start fighting enemies. RNGesus hates me so I don’t get any gear drops but I do level up to level 3. Well, the enemies have leveled up with me and now I can’t kill them any more because I haven’t had any luck with gear drops and still have a starter weapon.

This is great for instances or specific areas that are supposed to be hard. Areas where you shouldn’t be able to have a high level steamroll through for you. In general overworld environments I’m strongly against it.

5 Likes
Leveling and balancing thing
#2

Currently im level 3-5 on all classes and I have a 656 bow and a 200something wand, the other classes I have not managed to get a weapon drop and when you’re level 4 on a muskie with a starting weapon, your heals (cure wounds especially) feel like you’re doing nothing compared to what you should be able to do, not sure if that’s because of the level scaling and my gun is so many levels below me or because there is a issue with the way healing scales but some of the other muskies I was playing with also said their heals feel weak

1 Like
#3

You cant help but feel nerfed. Wait till our 20’s with t14 gear get killed by them. Alot of people were dissatisfied and went back to “real” orbus last night. They should put the level scaling to a vote and see what the community wants!

1 Like
#4

I second that, adding another point which wasn’t mentioned: like 90% of activity in the game, currently, for me, is farming mobs for dram and reagents, gathering up stuff for my potions, go fishing etc. The minigames can’t likely replace farming, they get boring too quickly and afais there is no real “collection”/“reward” element apart from perhaps reputation.

Then there is the issue with even getting to places. I can not even access areas without help of others in the Beta, like, big guys guarding a bridge, killing me every time I wanted to get past, so home cookie was the only option. And leveling will no longer help with this.

There is quite alot players, afais mostly US timezone ones, posting they want more group action, which is fine, because there’s always groups in this timezone, but I don’t think overall player number rises so greatly that this is true for EU players also (I also doubt I will find players helping me with dragon mazes or other minigames, because, if there’s enough players on, at all, we use this precious time for dungeons… so I really hope the solo-activity-part of the game is extended, too).

As for the Musky, I noticed same, but starting a separate thread for it else it gets OT.

#5

We expressed these concerns before and after they implemented level scaling in the dungeons. They didn’t care.

#6

I would vote against level scaling.

1 Like
#7

So I think there are a few things that are currently still missing from the game that are making the dynamic scaling idea seem worse than it will be long term.

For one, gear availability is scarcer right now than it will be. Essentially every time you level up you will get a large reward chest which has gear, items, etc. There are also other activities in the world such as missions, public events, and dungeons which will offer smaller reward chests. For the Beta I will go ahead this morning and greatly increase the base drop rate to make up for the lack of those systems.

Another thing is that the Swamp zone did not have dynamic scaling turned on by mistake until yesterday evening, so I know a lot of people were having trouble in that zone which was not intended.

And then in addition to all of that, right now the gear itemization isn’t in basically at all. It’s intended that you can (for example) run a dungeon and get a “5+1” weapon which actually makes you a little more powerful than would normally be possible based on the dynamic scaling. So when you are in your “T14 gear”, keep in mind that will be like “30+6” gear – it’s not going to allow you to just one-shot everything, but you will definitely feel more powerful than you did at “30+0” if that makes sense.

The goal with the dynamic scaling is to make it so that everyone in the game can do most overworld activities together. This is really, really important for the longevity of the game. One of the biggest lessons we learned in the original OrbusVR is that we need a setup so that a Level 15 and a Level 2 can play together in a positive way that’s beneficial for both of them in a good chunk of the game.

There will be plenty of opportunities in end-game content such as shard dungeons and raids to get the feeling of increasing power as those will not be level scaled. So you will get to a point where you can easily do a Shard 1 dungeon where before it was very difficult, just like now.

With all of that in mind, if folks have a different idea that allows us to keep the entire community playing together in the overworld, that isn’t this system, or tweaks to this system, I’m definitely receptive. We didn’t just arbitrarily put this system into place, there are goals for the game that we are trying to achieve; I think the whole community benefits from a game that is better able to attract and retain new players.

6 Likes
#8

I reckoned that being the reason. Yet one of the most tiring issues is waiting for groups for 1-2h before starting anything. I don’t want to be pessimist, but I don’t miss group activities during the day, there will rarely be groups doing these with me and I can’t imagine running around for half an hour to find someone for daily quests. What I miss is solo activities. One of those was farming. If level-scaling slows that down or makes it impossible I literally got no incentive to log in.

I do see two ways to address that though, first a group queue to mix random players up in activities they literally ALL need. Second is having solo activities where it hardly matters if others are on. Solo activities should likely be first because they will attract players which know they have always things to do, hence a reason to login and group activies amongst become more likely also.
I am currently playing a game where there’s even daily solo dungeons, arenas etc. A nice idea which keeps it crowded and it’s easy to find people in the queue also.

Also for all this to work the one thing players look at when joining groups - if they don’t happen to be very good friends - are rewards. The potion reward brought at least a small number back to dungeons where they otherwise got nothing from. No lvl 20 rewards for the dungeon queue emptied it in no time. And so on. But I think this is clear and it all goes into the right direction with reputation rewards etc.

#9

So I think in general what we are going for long-term in the overworld is, by default pretty much everything is solo-able (including with dynamic level scaling). So if you are just wandering around, you should be able to do that alone just fine.

Then there are areas of the overworld (such as the public events, named monster hunts, elite groups, etc.) that are designed for ad-hoc groups where generally speaking people should just show up and do them together. But these are specific areas, you would be able to easily avoid them if you don’t want to do them.

Then there is additional content (such as dungeons or PvP battlegrounds) that you specifically form a group or queue for in a more organized fashion.

So to take your point, if your concern is “I want to be able to still solo stuff in the world and farm things”, that should be very doable. If you feel like you wouldn’t be able to do that in the current Beta with a class you are familiar with then that’s definitely a balancing issue.

4 Likes
#10

Why cant a lower level scale up when teaming with a higher one? I can understand how important it is to retain players. Level scaling is why I left wow and I played that from 2009. People like to feel powerful. Why arent reagents dropping in beta? Now is when we need them most.

1 Like
#11

This is a huge turn off. Not a fan of handouts. What incentive is there to craft/hunt if you’re just going to have it given to you?

Why not pull from FF XI again and add a level sync system? So that lvl 15 and that lvl 2 player can sync down to the level 2 players level and grind out experience in the overworld.

I personally feel that the dynamic scaling system in the overworld will push more people away than bring them together. I’m all for group content and pushing people together to play but right now as a level 1 character I don’t feel like I can even get started in the game.

Again, I’m not entirely against dynamic scaling. I think it’s fine for dungeons, both instanced and in world. I think it’s find for specifically designed content that players shouldn’t be able to steamroll no matter their level. Even certain parts of zones like beastman cities. Those are all fine. It shouldn’t be the overall rule. There should be level 1 mobs, level 15 mobs and level 30+ mobs.

I’m also perfectly fine with loot scaling based on difficulty so I don’t get loot from things I one shot if that’s also a concern.

5 Likes
#12

this is 1 thing they wont budge on. no use complaining about it.

#13

I’m not really sure what you mean. It’s not handed to you, you have to earn it by doing stuff in the game. Then you get a reward for doing the stuff. Just like you get a reward for doing a quest or anything else in most MMOs.

It’s worth noting that the reward chest draws from the overworld gear pool, for example, so if you want the dungeon style (and power) of armor, or shard dungeon, or raid, or anything else, obviously you have to go do those activities. And if you want are planning to do more crafting than just for yourself, you are going to have to do a lot of gathering out in the world. The reward chests (like the shard dungeon bonus chest in the current game) are just more of like a “bonus loot” type of deal, not the main thing.

1 Like
#14

As others have mentioned in this thread now, there’s the possibility of scaling in one direction only (either low level to high level or high level to low).

High level to low probably makes the most sense to me. I was not a huge fan of that in FF14 for the simple reason that it messed with my muscle memory and rotations…every time I ended up in a low level dungeon and had access to a whopping one healing ability I let out a small groan.

We wouldn’t really have that problem in this game since there is no gating of skills. I would not be a fan of turning off talents either at low levels since that messes with your muscle memory.

I guess at that point the question becomes, what’s the advantage to that over the current system? If you’re high-level and go to a low-level zone, you’re still getting “downgraded.” Even if the level syncing is opt-in, you’re basically forced to use it to get any loot from anything worthwhile (e.g. public events).

And then at that point, half the game world isn’t available to new players. So if the current weekly Monster Hunt is in a high level zone, a good chunk of the population just can’t do it.

With the current system, you will get more powerful at max level than you are when you start the game, thanks to talents, above-level “Plus Gear”, and obviously your skill increasing. Is it just a case of people really wanting someplace they can go in the world to one-shot monsters? I totally get the power fantasy part of it, just wondering if that’s the main thing or if there are additional considerations.

1 Like
#15

The power fantasy is definitely part of it but it’s also a sense of progression. I’ve put in 30 hours into this game. I’ve climbed to level 22. I can still die to the same enemy that killed me the first time I logged in??? It somewhat invalidates the effort put forth to level up and get stronger.

It’s also the way it’s being presented. It’s not an option. You’re forced into being weak.

Navigation becomes a massive pain. I’m level 25, back in the starter area. I’m off to meet my friends who are already over at xyz place. I should be well over level and should be able to move around freely but I can’t get through this choke point to get to my friends because there’s a couple of the larger starter monsters in that choke point that kill me if I go through. If not kill me, they add additional time having to clear every single starter mob before I can join up with my friends.

As I grow in levels and gear, I shouldn’t have to continue to be afraid of enemies I’ve outgrown.

I understand the motivation. I understand the problem you’re trying to solve. We do need more things to bring people together and allow them to play at the same level. I just can’t get behind a forced, global, always on approach.

7 Likes
#16

The mental image I have of this is what other F2P MMOs do where they give you a box that you can open up at certain levels. So when you level up to level 5, you get this shiny new set lf rare gear just handed to you with more potions that you’ll ever use at that level. That gear is great and works better than any other gear you can get until your next chance to open the box. Continue until max level. Quest rewards become pointless. Crafters suffer. There’s not need to try and get that one drop from that one thing.

This isn’t a F2P game and you don’t need to have that same bait players mentality so maybe it wont be as egregious as I fear. You know that I’m a huge FF XI fan and it was because things took effort. Nothing was handed to you and you felt accomplished when you completed something. I strive to find more games like that and shy away from games that give away things just because I leveled up. The reward for the effort it took to level up is the actual level up and becoming stronger IMHO.

That’s getting off topic a bit though.

2 Likes
#17

I think you’re jumping to some pretty big conclusions there haha.

It’s just the same exact loot you would get for grinding mobs in the overworld, but given out in a little more structured way to help with some of the RNG fatigue.

FF11 was my first MMO so I have fond memories of it as well. One of my favorite things about it that I would love to figure out how to capture in Orbus is the way that you often created hunting parties and went out into the world together for a couple of hours to hunt things. Basically that’s the whole drive behind the idea of the scaling. We don’t have the population size to support there being 60 different cohorts of people forming groups. It’s just not where we’re at. So we need to increase the size of the available hunting cohort.

1 Like
#18

Something else we could consider doing is basically doing the dynamic scaling with a bit more leeway either direction. So for example we could keep the current “relative difficulty” markers, and mobs can go from “Diffcult”, “Even Match”, “No Challenge”, at e.g. -2, 0, +2 levels or something like that. So basically you would eventually grow powerful enough that all mobs in the overworld are basically No Challenge – again it would not be a one-shot situation, but you would be more powerful than them to the point where they would be “easy”. That’s kind of the direction I was going with the gear anyway, but we could make it more explicit that way. That might be one way to preserve the power fantasy better though, so you actually see the status of the mob change.

5 Likes
#19

What about if a tier-level system was implemented? Like with what we currently have in live, where mobs have a certain ‘level’ to them and their aggro radius shrinks as you pass that. If you keep the level-scaling for damage, but make the aggro radius shrink based on actual level, that might make it easier for people to skip over the what-should-be-low-level mobs.

I do personally find that power fantasy to be enjoyable. If there are options to get Tier X+Y gear at every level and the +Y made the items perceptibly more powerful, it might account for that need. As it stands, my understanding is that this is intended to be implemented, with dungeons and other scaling instances providing Tier X+Y gear even under top level. Please correct me if I’m mistaken on that, as it would be a major sticking point.

#20

Indeed, the current idea is that basically dungeons always drop +1 gear. So if you go do a dungeon at level 5, you get 5+1. At 30, you get 30+1.

Then shard dungeons would drop 30+2 through 30+4, with raids dropping 30+3 through 30+6. Something like that.

And of course shards and raids are not scaled. So that’s definitely where the power fantasy seriously kicks in, in the form of “I couldn’t even look at these raid monsters without dying before and now we have them on farm.”