“…once you get the mechanics down.” It’s expected the first few times will take longer while you work em out, but johann’s point was that they aren’t expected to take 20 minutes every time forever.
Does that boss have an enrage? Because it would be impressive to be honest lol.
But ye he is probably saying 20-30 minutes because in pugs, 1-2 people may die during the fight which is probably what happened in the 17 min run.
My whole point is the fights are not designed to take longer than 15 minutes if the mechanics are followed correctly. Of course, when you’re first learning the fight it will take longer. I bet if that group did that fight again, they would shave a significant amount of time off that fight. I’m guessing they probably lost some dps early in that fight and decided to keep going.
So we’re learning a lot as we build out the first type of content here. A lot of these fights are not any harder than a (for example) T3 fight from a “how much damage is coming out of the boss” standpoint; however, the mechanics unique to each boss add a lot of complexity, and then of course there’s the complexity of managing 10 people, etc. The first few days have given us a lot of info about how high we can ramp up that mechanical complexity and how hard it makes it to complete the fight, etc.
Regarding the loot, I think the ideal progression once everything is out would be:
Level 20 -> Tradu Mines -> T1-T3 Shards -> Normal Raids -> T4 - T8 Shards -> Hard Mode Raids -> Expert Mode Raids
Of course since the Normal Raid came out after everyone had already been grinding T8+ Shards for a while, that kind of threw things off.
On Tuesday when we nerf the Raid content a bit I think it will fit into that spot, and I anticipate a lot more groups of Level 20’s being able to do it for better gear than they have now.
This probably is true if you all got tier 10 gear the raid however is focused on tier 1 to 5 gear and for an entry raid with all entry lvl players who are not swimming in legendary and dont have have all tier 10 gear and runetile set and min maxed all there gear/pattern. For the entry level players 4 out of 5 fights.take way longer then 15 minutes and borderline 30 minutes even maybe.
Anyways no matter how you put it the fight take to long for the level of difficulty it is. The raid as it is now is not really doable with tradu mines/shard 1to 3 gear after the first boss. its nice they cater to the elite and stuf but its not really that interesting or fair for the people who the raid dificulty is intended for. It is way overtuned for them as it is.
I understand its not a popular opinion but…
Whats the point of raiding after tier 3 if shard dungeons hold better loot and can be completed much faster and easier and give guarantee loot everyday? It can take multiple weeks to a month before u see 1 drop and it will prob be worse statted then you already have or can buy a random drop wich is prob worse statted armor/attackwise also.
Sorry i dont really see the pay off in this system for casual raiders. It seems to be a lot of hassle for very Little to no upgrade at all unless maybe later cosmetic wise. The gear u will get will be Worse then shard dungeons wich can be completed much easier and fasterThe only incentive in the raid now for most people is to complete it once and then run shards Again because it will hold better loot.
Raid gear should be better then normal tradu mines shard dungeon gear imo. What is the incentive otherwise to run/organise/lead raids. Or save up tokens for the item. If this really is the progression then its kinda pointless for the more casual guilds. Thats just my 0,02$
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This is very useful in terms of dev expectations… Do you see T9/T10 Shards as being between Hard Mode and Expert Mode or more on par with one of them?
The new armor appearances are a cosmetic reason to normal raid. Will be useful when transmog comes around.
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@Riley_D
Although Bart and Draven has just touched on the same, it is problematic if what you listed is not only intended progression path but also gear strength. If the normal raids will follow the above listed path, i am almost certain that very few people will bother.
However, if normal raids provide loot that is attainable at T3 shard gearing, but is power weighted at f ex T7-8, then it makes sense. This due to the time it takes to get those drops (randomness + tokens). In short, if people don’t have an incentive to do harder content chances are they probably won’t. And that is a darn shame.
So, to list an example:
Desired progression:
Level 20 -> Tradu Mines -> T1-T3 Shards -> Normal Raids -> T4 - T8 Shards -> Hard Mode Raids -> Expert Mode Raids
Gear strengh:
Level 20 -> Tradu Mines -> T1-T3 Shards -> T4 - T7 Shards -> Normal Raids / T8+ shards -> Hard Mode Raids -> Expert Mode Raids
- where the trick is people being able to obtain powerful gear earlier than climbing the whole shard dungeon ladder, but at a much slower rate and with a much higher degree of work involved. This in turn does not exclude climbing the shard ladder at the same time
Edit @Sour:
And although some people place a high value on cosmetics, there is equally plenty people who don’t which is why i would guesstimate a raid to “fail” (be underused) if that is the only reason to be there.
Yes hence why i said cosmetic reasons only in my Reply.
The point still stands tho that
Tier 1 to 3 then raids then tier 4-8 makes no sense.
Your supposed to get better gear from raids so u can do tier 4 to 8… u can run some of the easier 4+ shard dungeons within half an hour or less. Why bother grinding raids for gear thats bridging tier 3 to 4…
The fix is pretty easy tho give the raid gear set bonusses so it will at least make the shard dungeons easier what its intended for.
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Yes your progression at least makes sense and give people an incentive to run raids
At the end of the day, we’re here to have fun.
It’s something new and fun to do with 10 friends and challenge yourselves to getting the best possible strategy down and fastest time.
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Some good points in here. It probably would make more sense to have shard -1-5 > Normal raids -(giving gear t5-8)>Shards t8-t10> Hard Raids (21.5) > Harder Raids > (22)
Also, would love to see raid sets give a set bonus for each class.
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Ohhh I forgot how I loved sets in Diablo. Now I want 2-3 rare sets for my ranger so I can grind all the gear and become flashy (Visual bonus from having X pieces of the set).
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Raid gear should be better/more rewarding for coordinating 10 players and only 5 chances for gear to drop each week, I understand you can hand in tokens for missing gear pieces but the will take a lot longer then grinding out shard dungeons T9-T10 which can be done multiply times per week plus you get 7 rolls for a guaranteed item per week on top of your normal loot in that shard. Unless Hard mode is a gear upgrade or what Johann said armour set bonuses which is a really good path to take in my mind, Hard mode will just be like Normal mode. More cosmetic armour and a challenge… 
If you “look down memory lane”, or in other words how mmorpgs have done this in the past, the chronology of the whole thing is usually important. Dungeons are almost always implemented first. Then a while later comes along a raid offering harder content but also better gear. This usually repeats itself a few times in an mmorpg, usually seperated by a bit of time, by expansions, by DLCs (which admittedly is a new’ish phenomenon all things considered) and so on. Regardless, all is good because players will, over time, know exactly where they are on the gearing and progression ladder.
However, as Riley has already mentioned, this particular raid has come out after “higher” dungeons have already been implemented and on top of that the people doing/testing the raid so far already has better gear. So this royally fubars the normal chronology of things.
So how do you put this raid into its desired place in the progression path without either making the later dungeons or the raid itself obsolete? You have to balance risk versus reward. The risk here being that it is harder to organize a raid than a group. Being more people it also takes more effort from a mechanics standpoint. And then theres the reward. If the reward matches the next normal dungeon, you make the raid obsolete since the next dungeon has less risk. If the reward is better than all the next dungeons you may make the dungeons obsolete. But if you make the reward better than the next dungeons, but severely limit the rate at which you can obtain it, then both dungeons and raid stay relevant.
Luckily, the rate at which you can obtain the raid gear already has such a limiting mechanic. All that is left is to balance this rate along with how great the reward is and you have succesfully injected that raid into a “chronology” that would otherwise have been broken.
I realize i am repeating myself a bit here although with different words, but i feel the subject is important enough to warrant that.
Edit:
Sorry for all the edits i always do to my posts. Even though i try to proofread them, i find i always miss some words, have bad spelling, bad grammar, stuff i didn’t make clear etc… Bear with me 
Dungeons (Speaking in my opinion) Should be a way to gear players up for raids and also be a way to gather certain materials or consumables for raids but however with the game being layed out in this certain way, Which I have no problem with is raid Materials are farmed up in wilds in order to help have world PvP and having finished consumables drop from dungeons would just be extremely damaging to the ageing and alchemy system in place.
I’m not 100% sure how you can keep Shard dungeon relevant content for everyone, But I’m always going to be running them for helping out players/fellowship members how I would like to see Progression would be Shard T1-5 -> Normal raids -> Shard T5-10 -> Hard raids -> A new raid -> A new raid hard mode!?
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Not everyone has 10 people on the go.
I’m sure Shards will still be done to gear people up.
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Sorry if I missed it mentioned, but can you add Raids and Necropolar as options in the LFG? It would also be nice to have the actual classes as options - sometimes you do want a Mage over a Ranger and vice versa.
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Can you clarify this? Does it mean the reset happened 9 hours ago? I thought the reset would happen with a rebalance patch but haven’t seen one yet.
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