Raids A little Unfair


#1

I really hope Reborn will be different when it comes to raids. Seems like the raids are tailored made for the top two fellowships while the average pug group cant make it past boss 3 on normal. The only time iv been ever able to do hard or expert is when these top 2 groups need an extra player which is “RARE” .


#2

I think the raids are meant to be challenging group content, and the only problems I’ve ever had are lag spikes on Boss #3 jumpy feller. I’d try asking around Highsteppe for better strats.

In essence, I feel it’s more fun to practice and really push your skills to the max rather than bring down the skill ceiling making it a boring cakewalk for everyone. And at the end of the day you can always do shard dungeons. Those are pretty tough. Or find a fellowship to raid with.


#3

So there’s a couple things here. First off I think a pug group decently geared and experienced could handle all bosses in normal. The reason this is so hard to pull off has a lot to do with some culture problems of the game.

First problem had to do with tank shortages. The class itself is very demanding and unforgiving. One mistake as a tank and you go splat and the whole group wipes. It’s not the same experience as another role. This means there aren’t many tanks available so as a result there are few pug groups and few experienced pug players.

Second is secrecy. The top guilds keep their strats private as to not give an advantage to their bitter rivals and about scrutiny that comes with sharing your fight footage. This factor also extends to maximizing your character. Notice that no one is openly discussing the optimal rotations, tilesets, or talents openly. Part of this comes from how hard it is to test stuff in Orbus as that’s a very time consuming activity so people want to save it for themselves and let others find it for themselves.

The fights on normal mode aren’t unreasonably demanding but they require a player to have a lot of time spent building their reflexes and optimising their character, then they require practice to successfully execute. With the culture of secrecy and shortage of take I think this is pretty hard to pull off.


#4

Also we may start trying to organize some public raids again soon which Will hopefully get people some experience with the fights too.


#5

A huge thing for me going into pug is knowing that we are going to wipe 20 times because the tank is inexperienced and I can’t really do anything about it so 10 peoples time is going to be essentially “wasted”.

It would be nice if there was like a training ground where tanks could practice blocking and avoiding on a “Boss” target dummy type thing.


#6

Agreed. Something like this would be really helpful. Hopefully the new tanking discipline will create a new generation of tanks to help even out the role distribution.


#7

Thats an interesting idea, so a practice dummy that would “attack” back that you would have to use your shield or dodge, but would do very little damage to you (like level one damage) while it had a massive amount of HP so it wouldn’t die easily. Not promising that it will make it in game, but that is a good idea.

One thing that will help also is the new features coming out Monday, which will allow you to queue for a dungeon and play PUG dungeons easier so that maybe that will in turn allow more players to practice and be ready for dungeons/raiding.


#8

Robert do you think we could get that kind of addition in reborn as either a highsteppe feature or a house upgrade? Some kind of training hall where we can practice and more importantly measure our efforts.

For the tank dummy you could give it a tank buster that still deals one damage but if it hits you in the face plays a wah wah sound to let you know you made a mistake.


#9

I’m not sure it will be a feature at all, but it is a interesting idea for one though. So I guess to answer your question I’m not sure where it would be at, well have to see if it fits into our schedule we have for Reborn and if its something were for sure going to do first.

There will definitely still be practice dummies in Reborn to go against in the town of Highsteppe though, just not sure if it will be to the extent listed above.


#10

That’s fair. I’m sure you and the rest of the team have a jam packed development schedule leading up to release. Thank you for hearing the suggestion.


#11

i think in general the tank needs to be made easier lets face it half of the expert players are afraid to tank and appear weak and fragile. the plan fact is that the game demands like5 times more from a tank then anything else so yes its super scary to go up against new bosses and waste 10 peoples time its like you can either tank it urself and basicly waste the time and pots of 9 other ppl or just can a raid. warriors are forced to use all they abilitys movement and teleport and basic attacks all the time your trying to do like 5 differ things all exactly perfect or the whole group is dead then you get ppl complaining and trying to tell the tank how to do it (and off topic but hey guys if your to scared to pick up a sword yourself then your comments no matter the intent are not really helping so ALL DPS in the game pick up a sword urself or be quiet please) ya needless to say the fact that a mage if they wanted to can cast a fireball every 15 seconds and jump out the way like once every 2min and they can do the raid but a warrior has to manage his shield his provokes his hamstrings kiting dashing bashing and horning and lord help you if you make one false step. i mean its kinda hard to die for DPS during some of these fights making this A HUGE ISSSUE for class balancing cuz warrior is like 5 times the work for the same reward


#12

I wouldn’t discount the other classes roles in the fights. It’s the dps role to pump out as much damage as possible to make the fight short and save the tank from doing the same rotation for 30 minutes. The healers have to aim accurately and time their orbs to cover the dps and tank consistently the entire fight. Yes, the tank is difficult, but once you learn the rotation, pay attention, have a high enough gear check, and communicate with the party it relieves a lot of the pressure. You can’t pick up the tank class and expect to do well. Most warriors still don’t understand that shield height matters when blocking and eat a tankbuster to cause a wipe. The warrior class is more similar to runemage than people think. There are a lot of nuances to be learned and practiced if you want to be good. A mage that can only spam fireball 2 is just as useless as a tank that can’t block. The only difference is the other dps can often compensate.


#13

Phillip do you play warrior? I mean it’s definitely demanding but I don’t know that it’s as you make it out to be. Realistically you can be a perfectly good tank if you learn the fundamentals. It’s never making a critical mistake for 10-20 minutes that makes it so difficult. Blocking tank busters, stunning at the right time, continuously provoking, and dodging other effects. If you can handle those core skills you’re a tank!

Also don’t belittle the other roles like that. If someone doesn’t want to be a warrior it’s fine but when there’s a massive shortage of warriors the class needs something to make it more appealing.


#14

Maybe roll a tank yourself and fill that role then ?


#15

That brings us back to the beginning.

I’ll need practice and for 4 or 9 people to waste time with me so I can tank better without wiping.


#16

I mean its not really that bad. I don’t think that warrior is unreasonable to play, I just think its unappealing to most. We do get the best looking gear consistently though.


#17

I agree with @Justin. Tank is a hard role to play. DPS can practice spells against dummies. All the tank can do against practice dummies is practice provokes, wound, hamstring, but they are lacking the chance to practice boss fights which is what is really needed. At end game content, there are only a handful of tanks that can tank hard and expert. Even people like me who have a level 20 don’t want to tank because if I miss a block or crit, I can die and wipe the group. People don’t really want to play with the tank who causes lots of wipes, or you need a group that will be patient. The only time I can practice as a tank is with groups, but I don’t want to waste everyone’s time.

Honestly, it would be nice if the tanks can practice against bosses by themselves. If we had a boss dummy, or a room with a boss, that we can select similar to the ones in the game, and what level (normal, hard, expert), people can practice and we would have a lot more tanks for end game content. If we would make a mistake and would of died in the real boss, we can have an animation or big X to indicate that we would of died, but not actually die. This would actually be a good way to practice and I might actually get to play tank again.

I know this probably won’t get in before reborn, but think about it for the future.


#18

You do now u can practise by just entering a lowbie dungeon. For instance the first boss in wenderwood has a tankbuster. The 1st boss in jungle has pools the 3rd boss in jungle has a breath attack. These are all bosses tank can practice the moving away and shield part they are also big bosses so you can also practice what distance u need to be able to provoke.


#19

Yes, I do know you can practice at those dungeons, but I was talking more about raids bosses and people need practice with hard mode and expert mode raid bosses.


#20

most online games have this issue, as noone wants to spend 2 hours doing nothing but wiping. This is why people create guilds… to avoid the pugs. There is no perfect solution to this problem. Pugs will just not ever clear the top tier content (and i dont know why they would need to if they are casuals).

If you want them to experience the not quite so top tier content, your only solution would be to make extra difficulty levels for the end content that caters to casuals that everyone else can skip past (as they aren’t worth clearing).

We currently have the shard dungeons which make stuff harder, but the normal mode bosses are not exactly forgiving to the tanks (and maybe this is just a flaw in the way tanks have to be perfect currently in the game). I propose for easy mode dungeons, where a couple of mistakes won’t wipe the party, where people can learn to actually do the end game content without doing nothing but wiping.