“3 arrows in 0.6 seconds”
7 Likes
I love the idea of having to reach for a new arrow over your back. Since this is a VR game we should make it seem more like a reality situation.
(Everything forward is based on reach over back for new arrow)
That said, we should be able to spam as many arrows a second that we can without a punishment (here is where player fitness and aim make the ranger class less like a fast twitch movement and more of a “skilled class” similar to how a Runemage needs to be accurate with castings).
With this increased motion resulting in time lost in a fight, I suggest an increase in damage overall. Hear me out… right now dps is fine but its based on spamming, if we reduce the shots per second with the over the back reach, the ranger will be low on dps therefore, an increase would be needed.
I don’t think that right now rewarding a ranger for precise shots is a doable option just yet. We know the hit boxes on enemies are already buggy, so trying to change this right now will just be insane. And the boxes will likely be changed for the better when other more important issues are resolved.
A reward for a timed shot technically already exists in the form of a rechargeable passive skill that you can use once available, therefore adding a charge bar or 1 second timed shot would be redundant.
With this new over the back reach the ranger will need to rely on distance shooting and aim before the enemy closes the distance… but once the distance is closed, the ranger will have to move away to create distance by way of using their trap skill. The trap now only lasts a second at best but increasing the hold to a 2-3 second hold the ranger can move a decent distance away to take a few more shots. On this note there could also be a sort of bash option using the bow hand to stun the enemy so you can get a shot off (again allowing enough time for the over the back reach if an enemy is close.
I believe that with a more realistic reach for an arrow and an increase in damage the ranger will rely more on their special arrows, trap and possibly bow bash/ stun to take on enemies. Creating a more of a skilled class rather than a completion of who can shake weight the fastest.
3 Likes
Lars isn’t a very good example of realistic shooting. As someone who has some interaction with the “archery world”, he’s a bit of a joke.
However, many of the historical and scientific claims made in the video have been contested or discredited
2 Likes
But Orbus isn’t very good example of real world 
We can argue about how fast one can swing medieval sword.
There is russian girl who shoots like arrow per sec, but in real warfare it takes much more time. So it’s all down to gameplay.
The point was that it is possible to shoot fast, even if not practical.
1 Like
And lots of people think that arrow-spamming gameplay isn’t fun. We are still promoting 0.75 to 1 second per shot as the target speed, which as you acknowledge is unrealistically fast. I just think fast shooting that requires precise release timing would be more fun that mindless arrow spamming.
I thought about that and probably damage can be scaled to draw. Like if full damage after one sec, then 0.2 sec will give you 20% damage. So you choosing the speed. The strength can be reflected by heptic feedback getting stronger.
The thing is I cant see logic or relation to the archery in decreasing damage after 1s.
The only real logic (in terms of relating to RL) to the decreasing damage after 1s is that the longer you hold a draw the more tired your arms get and the more likely your aim is to deteriorate. Instead of having aim get worse in-game, damage decreases as a more gameplay-friendly analogue.
I dislike the drop in damage if not at a precise time. I shoot archery for a hobby and a hold is sometimes needed if the target is on the move or you just don’t feel like you quite have the right shot to release. Granted using heavy # limbs make it quite hard to hold for longer than a second or two at full draw.
I think that a knock to release on a real life archer could be about a one second or so draw time, if using a target bow with 25-35# limbs… all of this means nothing in this game however, my point is a skilled archer in real life could knock and shoot an arrow in 1-2 seconds. This is proven by the Lars video and that video of that Russian chick (somewhere on youtube)… even the legolas video too. Granted the Lars video has speculation about his technique, he is in fact knocking and shooting accurately at a target, and fast. And although in the legolas video he isn’t actually shooting an arrow his motion is real and therefore the speed it takes for a human to make that motion is the goal to add. A reach to a quiver for an arrow… and an increase in damage for the loss of speed/spamming. This will make the feeling of being an archer more REAL in game and less like you’re trying to pull start a lawn mower really fast.
Reach for arrow from quiver + small damage increase please.
3 Likes
I think that what physical skill Rangers should be practicing is accuracy, and that goes to the heart of this. You do not need to be accurate at close range or against large enemies. There should instead be parts of enemies that are weak to damage, and parts that are resistant to damage. This would reward skilled play and punish unskilled play.
The devs could even implement a Monster Hunter style system for larger enemies where areas can be “broken” so they take more damage. This kind of thing can also influence skills and combat dynamics. Maybe charge shots can do extra “break” damage to areas. Maybe make bosses get hit with a long stun if you “break” their face. This can also be spread out to other accuracy based classes as well.
I really don’t like the idea of limiting the damage for shooting too quickly or not holding the arrow for long enough. This enforces an artificial skill ceiling on archery, and does not reward practice past a certain point. Outside of long range shots, which for better or worse aren’t super relevant in most combat scenarios, this proposed system will make top level skill attainable within a few days of playing or even less for those who take an hour or so to practice.
I understand the sentiment of lining up your shot, but that is entirely in the name of accuracy. Instead of artificially enforcing the line up, let skilled, accurate players take as long as they need to to line up shots and let loose.
2 Likes
I think pulling arrows out of a quiver for each shot would be a good change, but there is an equal amount of pros to cons for that. A timing bar is a great change, but make it a fluctuating timing bar, so if you miss the sweet spot, it will come back around rather soon. Not too much punishment for missing the first time, but enough to promote a skill curve.
Basic example of a timing bar.
You would let the arrow fly when the bar is at maximum; the closer you get to max, the more damage you do. The charge shot would probably have to be replaced, but the damage should be a consistent increase per sot to make up for the original cool down.
Beyond that, I also think that targeting specific areas for different effects is a very good mechanic.
1 Like
I don’t think the charge shot would have to be replaced, you’d just get the auto-bonus for the charge and the base damage would be modified by the timing bar. Alternatively, you could make the charge bonus a multiplier of base damage and therefore the timing bar would become even more important to get right.
2 Likes
We’ve been thinking mostly about damage gating (can’t do max damage unless you charge), but there’s other things mini-charging could give you:
- Stamina or other mobility options (think of archers jumping around between shots in movies)
- Faster trap or special arrow recharge
- More special gauge
We’ve also been talking about strict “charge for X” mechanics, whereas there are also other options:
- Add a rhythm to the charge duration. With some haptics to signal, you could have a three-shot combo, for example, of two short charges and one longer one.
- Smoother or extra-wide pulls on the bow could charge faster.
Add on a little more equipment variety, and a lot of different play styles could also be feasible. There’s still some issues with spam shooting, IMO, and it should be nerfed, but it could be nerfed to make room for a wider array of abilities.
All in all, that classes will see reworks, big or small, is a good thing to hear from the devs. Here’s hoping they knock it out of the park, like the work done already proves they can. It’s been fun theorizing with you folks.
4 Likes
I like the more arcadey feel of orbus’ archer class. idk about you guys
I still maintain you can have both ways and eat the cake too.
All you need to do is let people shoot at whatever pace they want, and limit the damage buildup on slower shots to X second. That way people can fire at slower rates without feeling they need to be some rapid-fire king. Everyone will adapt to the new system and it accommodates both sides. It also preserves advantages to rapid firing in many scenarios but gives slow firing players equal footing and more accurate fire in most cases.
4 Likes
Corgi, you are brilliant!
You can also try going for a longbow style, increase the draw length. Based on the distance from the shaft, the damage is increased. The closer it is, the damage significantly decreases, but the farther it gets, the maximum damage can be achieved. While putting a limit at the maximum since pulling the string any further can cause some… overpowered effects.
In any case, I’ve always felt that bows should be tailored to the archer, and a full arm length for me is certainly different than one from a 12 year old. This takes away from the “realism” in the game and I have to shoot the bow horizontally from my chest instead of shooting if from a vertical position at the side of my head.
OR
do both as others stated. As long as the draw time compensates for rapid fire.
BTW this is exactly how the bow currently works.
2 Likes
precise release timing is promoted through damage dealt. The limit used to be higher than 3 because some of us were spamming at a rate or around 4-5 shots per second which was just unhealthy for my arms to be honest. 3 shots per second feels fine for me and the charge combo from a distance promotes accuracy of shot and release timing. I don’t really want to play a game where I have to become ‘the best archer’ and be forced to adopt proper poses etc. Ill go play an archery game for that.
The problem with this is it would get rid of any learning curve and need for skill. Because no matter what you do, you would be getting max damage
2 Likes
After playing ranger for 2 weeks straight heres my opinion on it. First of all the spamming the arrows that everyone is talking about is not an issue to me i can play for hours and not have a issue with my draw arm etc but then again i dont spam the arrow like most i see. I tend to find you only spam when you fight close up to an enemy, if you are firing from a distance it makes me time my shots more with accuracy especially if your trying to use a power shot then it makes you wait a couple of seconds to charge up anyway. Spamming arrows reminds me of Legolas from load of the rings hes cool lol but i do understand why people may not like spamming as it doesnt feel like playing but then warrior is the same your just there with a shield tanking then waving your sword a round as fast as possible until you have to block again so every class in a way has some sort of spamming involved.
The only down sides i find with the ranger is first of all the Armour if your solo and trying to grind then couple hits form a same based level enemy then you most likely die and health wise your not the best class. Damage wise you can do a lot but only from charge shots which take a while to charge so fighting a group of enemies then i understand why players have to spam because they dont have a choice if fighting close up because you most likely will die. Also healing rangers have no ability to heal oneself unless u have a heal potion and put the arrow back in quiver then use but in a fight this scenario isn’t ideal.
So back to the spamming issue that alot of people raise if something does change from the Devs then of course am always up to try it then will judge after but for me spamming is not an issue as i dont really do that but only really do it if i have to fight close up and spamming only gives you minimum damage anyway. The amour and healing part is the issue i have when soloing and fighting bigger enemies in groups as they tend to go for the rangers first because then cause big damage with charge shots.