Yep, pretty consistent with what I got. When you stack Charge and Piercing you lose a little damage from what the individual combined would be, but I think it’s worth it for the chance at a crit. The other benefit is that the cooldowns will be synced up almost perfectly, so you know exactly when to grab for the power arrow.
Scatter arrow only has a 5x multiplier, not 6. The center split arrow doesn’t do damage.
OP didn’t mention anything about group play vs solo play, but I’m talking about both. OP said spamming isn’t fun, in general, but look at every class and there’s a standard rotation for solo play that I’m sure becomes mundane for all of us at some point.
My mention of group play came up specifically because I can’t count the times I’ve seen a Ranger in a dungeon, up in a mob’s face spamming away because they’re convinced it’s the best DPS, even though they’re not breaking rhythm to apply Pierce shot, charge shot, or the globes that only are granted at a certain minimum shot score.
Yeah, it sucks that the Ranger can’t take advantage of slow, accurate shots in solo play because 99% of mobs that you’ll face in solo are melee, and it diddles the advantage we get from being at range. However, that’s a trade-off of doing things solo, and it’s a trade-off I’ll live with.
I also think the ranger spam is annoying and it feels like im just jerkin off, but If they increased the damage of the globes and reduced the damage of the fast shooting we could find a new style pretty fast. The quiver would be cool, I suggested a while ago it would be nice to have a fletching option where you can make arrows more powerful and place them in a quiver with a limit of say 10 arrows. But it didn’t get much traction. I think revamping the accordion method would be a good idea personally, id like to feel more bad ass for shooting far distances.
Having to draw an arrow would make the motion bigger which might just make things worse. Making every shot charge might be good, something like in golf games where you have to push a button when a meter is at the right point.
I like this suggestion, or like a reload feature in some games where they allow a fast reload if you hit the green area.
I still end up spamming at close range and it gives me ranger elbow and then I have to take a break from the game.
This is the biggest problem for me. Repetitive stress injuries spare no one.
I read this as your response to our complaint about the necessity for spamming, essentially “spamming has already been addressed by the devs, shoot long range instead of spamming”. To which I replied that that solution is flawed as it doesn’t work for solo players. To which you replied:
Taken together, to me it felt like you were saying, “you don’t have to spam, play in a group instead”. Apparently I was wrong about that. Just wanted you to know where I was coming from and wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth.
To me, this just further illustrates the problem presented by spamming in the first place. There shouldn’t even be an argument about whether or not it’s most efficient to use a Ranger’s full abilities or to just spam the base arrow, it should be obvious.
To me, one of the greatest benefits of VR is being able to feel like you are performing the actual actions of the battle. Spamming arrows as fast as I can doesn’t feel like archery. It feels like the VR equivalent of mashing buttons. This is, in my opinion, what sets Ranger spamming apart from other classes’ “standard rotations” that may get boring. My proposed fix of paced shots that reward timing instead of speed would suffer from the same repetition problems that the other classes face, but would have the advantage of feeling more realistic over spamming.
I agree that not getting the full utilization of the long-range bonus is a trade-off I can live with playing solo. I don’t agree that we should have to use an unpleasant mechanic (spamming) to make up for it, especially if spamming accurately long-range is considered end-game level play. I’m happy to concede this point if more people like the idea of spamming over paced shots, I’ll throw up a poll to see what the greater community’s opinion is.
In all fairness, I feel like the game could be updated as we go to become more complex. Each class already has rutted rotations for solo and group play, with only a few improv moments in dungeons when somebody pulls aggro or takes a hit they shouldn’t have and tanks and/or healers need to manage it. Since it’s VR, though, and it’s our first real MMORPG in VR, the devs are taking it slow and figuring out what we can and can’t do as far as complexity and class mechanics. I’m glad for that, but I’m also ready for more than just dps’ing until special arrows are up and popping super when it’s ready.
We have to tread lightly here, so I’ve been critical of a lot of suggestions posted so far. I’m not being pessimistic intentionally, just hesitant to throw big changes in until the devs are sure it’s a good change and it won’t throw balance or playability out the window.
thats where skill and endurance come in, being able to do the 3 shots a sec at a distance. It takes a lot of practice and Isn’t easy at first and you probably won’t get the hang of it before hitting 20.
I love the idea of having to reach for a new arrow over your back. Since this is a VR game we should make it seem more like a reality situation.
(Everything forward is based on reach over back for new arrow)
That said, we should be able to spam as many arrows a second that we can without a punishment (here is where player fitness and aim make the ranger class less like a fast twitch movement and more of a “skilled class” similar to how a Runemage needs to be accurate with castings).
With this increased motion resulting in time lost in a fight, I suggest an increase in damage overall. Hear me out… right now dps is fine but its based on spamming, if we reduce the shots per second with the over the back reach, the ranger will be low on dps therefore, an increase would be needed.
I don’t think that right now rewarding a ranger for precise shots is a doable option just yet. We know the hit boxes on enemies are already buggy, so trying to change this right now will just be insane. And the boxes will likely be changed for the better when other more important issues are resolved.
A reward for a timed shot technically already exists in the form of a rechargeable passive skill that you can use once available, therefore adding a charge bar or 1 second timed shot would be redundant.
With this new over the back reach the ranger will need to rely on distance shooting and aim before the enemy closes the distance… but once the distance is closed, the ranger will have to move away to create distance by way of using their trap skill. The trap now only lasts a second at best but increasing the hold to a 2-3 second hold the ranger can move a decent distance away to take a few more shots. On this note there could also be a sort of bash option using the bow hand to stun the enemy so you can get a shot off (again allowing enough time for the over the back reach if an enemy is close.
I believe that with a more realistic reach for an arrow and an increase in damage the ranger will rely more on their special arrows, trap and possibly bow bash/ stun to take on enemies. Creating a more of a skilled class rather than a completion of who can shake weight the fastest.
This whole conversation kind of reminds me of the old “I can’t cast spells runemage is broken” discussions. The thing you are discussing is changing a complete class, and how it has been balanced. You used to have no caps, but now you do, so be happy about that, and if you can’t physically shoot fast, that’s just a bit of the class difficulty. All of the classes have different things that make them difficult to master, mage is the skill to cast spells, musket is the timing of when and where to put heals and the accuracy to shoot them from wherever your target might be, warrior is physical strength and muscle memory of combos, and ranger is the endurance to continue shooting fast and from afar, when I am shooting I am doing it from afar, and if I am solo I can get a full 5 orbs before t gets hat close to me. Special arrows also play into skill, as when I use them it doesn’t disrupt my rythym at all, going from 3 per second to 2 when I use it. That’s just my 2 sense, but I have only been playing ranger since stress tests so what do I know?
Just because you are good at the game mechanics doesn’t mean the game mechanics are good. So far 70% of poll respondents have expressed dissatisfaction with arrow spamming and no one has mentioned it being too hard, just not enjoyable. Granted, 62 voters out of 8,000 owners of the game is far from representative, but the view is clearly not just new players whining about the difficulty like with runemage.
Far ranged shooting and kiting in solo situations isn’t broken. “Spam for your life” kind of is though. At a certain point, spray and pray becomes your only option, because what you were kiting is in your face and your trap is spent. That’s not mastery though. That’s a break in the design.
Also, there’s a difference between can’t spam shoot and won’t spam shoot. Spam shooting is neither physically nor conceptually difficult. It’s just boring and doesn’t fit into long term play.
I will give Kamina credit where it is due. If he is actually able to consistently shoot 3 regular arrows per second and then slot in a special and still put out a second arrow in that second and return to shooting 3 arrows per second, all at long range without missing… That is difficult and requires some skill and I’m sure it gets tiring during boss fights. He claims it is fun for him too. But to me, that doesn’t feel like being a Ranger and doesn’t seem fun. That feels like skilled button mashing with some aiming thrown in and does not equate to the precision that quick rune drawing requires.
Yo the numbers arent important because they can vote, they might not play ranger. I have a lvl 20 ranger I’m as endgame as the ranger gets, I still spam arrows. I shoot a bow in real life and its way more fun to hit a distant unrealistic target, just watch a group of rangers try to pull a mob they all talk shit and have fun and rave about how great they are when they hit it. That to me is more fun than the jerk off bow shooting.
Yea, I’m not really sure what your point is? The fact that you spam arrows in endgame just proves the point that spamming arrows is a required game mechanic. You also call it “the jerk off bow shooting,” which implies that you aren’t that fond of it, and you admit that you enjoy super long range shots more. So what are you really trying to say here?
I also bow hunt IRL. That is a major reason I don’t like the arrow spam, it feels very little like shooting a bow, which is supposed to be one of the perks of playing in VR. I’m also not saying I think it should be exactly the same as real life, game-ifying an activity is important to keep the game fun. For example, I’m not sold on the drawing every arrow from a quiver idea, because I think it could make the movements too complicated. Arrow spamming works as a game mechanic, I just think there is a better way to promote both fun play and skillful play that still mimics real life.
Okay, I don’t normally want to have to come in and moderate Suggestions posts, but I feel like we are getting really close to crossing a line here so I want to make a few points now rather than later so this can hopefully get back on track.
First off, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is no "right’ or “wrong” answer to the question of “what is fun to play in VR to me.” Our Guidelines make it pretty clear that what we’re looking for here is civilized, positive feedback. And that means it’s okay for someone to post an opinion different than your own, it’s not your job to come in and dissect their post point by point and prove how wrong they are, or critique their feedback with ad hominem attacks, which is where this thread is now headed.
So basically, it’s fine to start a suggestions thread to say “I think we should change how the Ranger works, here are some other ideas that might be cool.” And it’s fine to say “I disagree, I like the way it is.” But it’s not okay to then go “Oh well you disagree with me? You’re wrong and I’m right! There is only one true answer!”
Secondly, regarding the poll that was started. a) I would have preferred it was just started in the same thread since now we have two threads going with literally the same discussion in them which is counter to the rules. And b) it’s fine to start polls, but it’s not okay to then take the results of the poll, interpret them to support your argument, and then start bashing other people over the head with it, e.g. as another way of saying “I’m right and you’re wrong, see more people agree with me!” That doesn’t really matter, since as I said in Point 1, everyone’s opinion is valid, even if it is a minority opinion.
At the end of the day I read everything, and I have read both of these threads as well as every other Suggestions thread. We aren’t going to take time to comment on all of them no matter how many votes there are because we don’t announce things until we’re sure what we’re going to do, and what’s the most popular prevailing opinion may not be what’s best for the game. But at the same time, no class is going to play exactly the same three months from now as it is today, so your ideas and feedback are being taken into consideration as we consider the future of the game.
So yeah, I’m not commenting on this suggestions thread in particular in terms of the actual suggestion,but I am just saying, “please follow the spirit of the guidelines and don’t turn this into a flame war.”
(Also note that this is a message to a lot of people in this thread, not just any single person).
I thought it was a worthwhile mention that kiting does feel like a viable strategy for rangers, at least while solo.
SOLO:
I became MUCH more efficient (less damage taken, more damage done) by getting better with aiming from a long distance and hitting with charged shots as openers. I constantly back peddle as I continue to drop arrows into mobs as they approach from range and they are nearly dead before they actually reach me. Also, before they reach me, I usually have my 2nd charge shot ready as a finisher. Now, note that you do begin lose the damage bonus as they close in to trivial difficulty range, but by the time the bonus is depleted, I usually don’t have to spam much or at all to finish the mob.
Spamming all the time just doesn’t feel like it makes sense and you have to spend more downtime healing if you do.
Also, note that my tactics are employed against mobs that are red at level 15-16, non-elite. I’ve been using the sprint button and normal back peddling to move away after landing the first big shot to keep as much distance as possible while firing steady at steady pace.
GROUPS:
In groups, tanks seem to be able to hold aggro, and I try to move to a range where I get bonus damage and fire as fast and accurately as I can and just use the powered shots on an available special arrow as soon as it is up.
Overall, I’m not saying anyone has the wrong ideas here since our opinions are a reflection of things we feel about the game (which we all want to see grow and improve). I just wanted to offer what I learned to be effective.
That’s mainly what I want to hear. Obviously, you guys have thought of having a quiver before you even started coding, but decided against it for either gameplay reasons or coding reasons.
I made this thread after being told that I needed to put out more dps because my group members didn’t see me up close, spamming like a maniac. I enjoy the ranger aspect of the bow and arrow, and I love getting those medium to long range skill shots instead of having my skill be how quick I can move my hands together and apart next to an enemy.
The idea of the quiver is just one suggestion to not just slow down the spam, but also increase the rule of cool. I feel that with the quiver + some other changes, it might start shaping up to be a really fun and cool class that would make even some runemages jealous.
Happy to hear you’re reading the threads and taking it all into consideration, even if they don’t quite work for the vision of the game.
This is exactly the behavior I discourage when playing Orbus, or any MMO. So what if you’re not putting out 100% of potential DPS? Just play the game. Even boss fights don’t require 100% efficiency from any class. That’d be poor game design. Just do what works for you and ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.