Server Side Patch- Triplicity Talent

#1

We just pushed a server side patch that has the updated Triplicty talent.

I wanted to start by saying that we appreciate the feedback we received in the previous thread in regards to the Triplicity talent, and was glad to see that a topic with over 250+ replies to it was kept civil even with both sides having a strong opinion on the topic.

The way the talent will work currently is you receive 100% damage of the primary spell cast during Triplicty (no matter how many you cast), while the bonus damage diminishes after 5 until it steadies out from 9+ spells on with a flat rate. I listed the percentages below, the talent damage is adding the percentages of both additional spells together (for example on spells 1-5 each additional “orb” of the talent does 33% for a total of 66%)

1-5 = 100% (base spell) 66% (talent damage)
6 = 100% (base spell) 32% (talent damage)
7 = 100% (base spell) 16% (talent damage)
8 = 100% (base spell) 12% (talent damage)
9+ = 100% (base spell) 8% (talent damage)

We would love to hear some feedback from players running dungeons and endgame content ahead of the new LVL 30 dungeons and shard level increase coming out next week so we may take into account if this changes the difficulty of content.

3 Likes
#2

This change especially the way you tuned it make no sense. If your plan was to make runemages,in line with other classes you have to realize that at 13 spells in triplicity speed caster achieves the same damage as rangers. (Which I believe you have thought 1.5 spells per second being the “human cap”)

This means that for everyone they will be seeing dps losses as anyone who practices runemage past 300 hours can cast 9+ spells in triplicity, in fact by the time i finished learning to cast fireball/frosts i could easily cast past 9.

In a lot of casses people are better off not using triplicity with these numbers. Its better to upkeep afflictions and have 2 extra tiles and upkeep tiles than to have a rotation for triplicity.

4 Likes
#3

Perhaps it’s time to boycott mage for a while. If the Dev’s are going to continue to ignore the playerbase input then maybe we should ignore them. Get their own datapoints and continue to ruin the only class they actually got somewhat right. Go make some popcorn and watch them sink the ship. They don’t deserve this game. Hopefully someone with a brain will purchase it and build it into something proper. What a shame. I’m so disappointed.

3 Likes
#4

It doesn’t sound like you appreciate the feedback at all, considering you made no changes and didn’t acknowledge any of the ideas. Instead of making 3 dps classes happy, you pissed off one class. You even left the cap of 5 spells in place, because apparently that’s how fast mages cast.

Basically this means triplicity adds about 3.5-4 spells worth of damage (before other calculations) whether you cast 1 spell per second or 2.

This ruins all complexity of rotation planning and almost makes triplicity not worth using.

To begin with, triplicity doesn’t add the full 66% dmg. For some reason, the extra 2 fireballs don’t get buffed by the true affinity fireball boost (nor do they activate it). So normal fireballs do 1.15 damage in a rotation, whereas triplicity adds .66 (I’ve seem this vary from .5-.66 for some reason even without using the fire buff). So at best, it’s an additional ~.55 of a fireball added.

Rotation theory until now had a number of considerations based on cast speed. I took many factors into account to decide when to cast each spell to maximize benefits. There were a number of key ideas:

  • avoid using affliction during triplicity, because it isn’t duplicated
  • get 2 weaknesses up from afflictions, which last 8 seconds each, right before starting triplicity to maximize its dmg
  • avoid overlapping afflictions as much as possible while keeping 3 up as much as possible, even during triplicity
  • empower as many afflictions as possible with a frost before it, to extend the duration
  • cast as few frosts as possible only to proc tiles and extend triplicity
  • keep maximum tile uptime, especially when casting afflictions and triplicity

These ideas led me to a strict set of spells to cast exactly the same for ideal damage. I varied this rotation with other mages in the party to avoid overstacking afflictions. The rotation has to be redesigned for different cast speeds.

Now, rotation theory should look something like this:

  • use affliction during triplicity after the 5th spell because the damage increase from those spells is negligible
  • get weaknesses up whenever you use affliction because triplicity doesn’t add anything
  • just use afflictions at a regular interval because the rotation is the same throughout
  • all afflictions get frost buffed because they are spread evenly
  • cast few frosts regularly

Rotations using triplicity don’t have to care about where the afflictions go or how to optimize the triplicity uptime because only 5 spells need to be maximized. I can cast afflictions any time in my rotation except for in that 2.5 second period if I want. I don’t have to get 2 weaknesses up, I just need to constantly cast fires with afflictions every 5 seconds ish.

Triplicity already has a number of big drawbacks that are amplified now that it’s almost worthless. For starters, it costs 2 spells to activate. These spells are longer to draw than fires and frosts, so lets call it a cost of 3 fires.
Next, casting these spells drops tiles. Tiles come back after about 2 seconds of casting fire/frost in triplicity. That means that the first 4 spells in triplicity get no tiles, and only the 5th one is buffed. This also means that 1-2 of the buffed spells have to be frost.
Triplicity also requires its own tiles, because it uses a different timing. This is part of why it takes a little time to activate them. However, this means that there are only 2 slots for fire/frost triplicity tiles. To get 3 tiles up, we have to cast frost twice. This was ok when triplicity gave a buff enough to make up for the downside, but now it means that choosing to use triplicity either limits you to 0 tiles up for 2 seconds then 2 tiles up for 6, or to 0 tiles up for 2 seconds then a new rotation of casting twice as many frosts as normal. The first scenario is easier to calculate and should be higher damaging, so I’ll use that for now.

Triplicity gains at best 4 fires worth of damage. Then, the lack of tiles on the first 2-3 spells takes away 30% from the first fire, 30% from the first frost, and 20% from the next fire. Then, all spells for the next 8 seconds lose 10% from only 2 tiles up. Trip dmg then looks like this, excluding afflictions for simplicity:
1.55/1.3+(1.55x.6)/1.3+1.55/1.2+1.55/1.1+1.55/1.1+1.27/1.1+1.14/1.1+(1.1x.6)/1.1+1.07/1.1+1.07/1.1+1.07/1.1+1.07/1.1+(1.07x.6)/1.1+1.07/1.1+1.07/1.1+1.07/1.1=16.2
Not using trip looks like this:
1x16+1x0.6x3=17.8

17.8>16.2 with a cast speed of 2 spells per second, which is faster than 98% of mages. Slower casters lose more damage because it takes longer for them to proc tiles.
Triplicity does less damage than not using it.

These considerations alone make you significantly better off not using triplicity at all. This doesn’t account for the afflictions also getting less tiles during triplicity. By choosing to not use triplicity, I also free up 2 tile slots on my armor and don’t have to learn 2 extra spells (res,+ poly). I also don’t lag the party and myself out with all the extra (worthless) spells.

Now my rotation can be explained in one sentence:

Fire spam, frost every 3 seconds, affliction every 5 seconds. That’s it.

You took the most complex class, severely punished the players who put the most playtime into the class and your game, and replaced it with a braindead rotation that doesn’t require any planning/discipline, and is summarized in one sentence instead of a paragraph. However you change the scaling, you’re still taking the most customizable rotation design and making it not matter because triplicity no longer has to be planned around. When triplicity is an important, untouchable damage phase, rotation design is very complex. That’s not going to be the case however you frame diminishing returns.

Thanks riley.

Edit: I want to make something clear.

I don’t play orbus because of how fun grinding is, or how cool the dungeons are, or how hard raids are. I’ve cleared every challenge the game has offered many many times. I don’t need better gear, I don’t need rare drops, I don’t need to unlock lore, and I don’t need to keep improving to beat hard opponents. However, I’ve played orbus for as long as I have because of mage. 99% of my playtime is in mage, even though I also tank and heal when necessary. I play orbus just to get better at mage.

This change, destroying the most complex part of the class and normalizing me to less skilled mages, feels like a big fat middle finger to all the effort I’ve put into the only meaningful (to me) part of the game.

6 Likes
#5

Okay I do find this nerve too harsh towards the faster mages.

But I also want to say Cam you are probably oversimplifying the resulting damage between triplicity and non-triplicity at that speed. For one it would most likely be more realistic to lose 2 spells of time, not 3 spells of time while casting up triplicity. Looking at some shortcuts in theory they should be as fast or faster then at-least the fastest fire shotcut. For tilesets, I still am conficed you can have more tilesets up on the start of the triplicity. Your tileset design needs to change, thats all for that part.

But ya in the end, the buff is very low on the triplicity time itself. And can easily result in a dps loss if not acted on smart, or just an about ~2% dps boost overal, which is not good… We are talking here on the long stable fights though. There is still this higher edge of some bosses with a downtime.

#6

Fireball and frost take 1 stroke in a smooth direction, maintaining momentum. At high speeds, momentum is also vital to keep casting fast. Polymorph and especially res completely break that momentum. Res especially takes 2 strokes, with shortcuts, and about twice as much draw distance as a fire. It’s essentially the distance of a fire (middle part) + the loop to the left to position, the extra long line through, and the return to the reset point. As a mage who casts these spells hundreds of times a day as optimally as possible, I believe the timing I gave is accurate if not generously short.

Tiles will drop. It takes fire-frost-fire to proc 3 tiles. Casting fire-frost(proc)-fire(proc)-3 spells-trip might let the first spell in trip get buffed, if you’re fast enough. Slower mages will be punished more because they have no chance at all to keep tiles. The game then takes time to transition from timing runes of 1-2 spells per second to 4-6. Tiles often don’t proc on the first frost, meaning that the end spells of the first 5 wouldn’t get buffed instead. It averages out.

The issue is the same on bosses with downtime. You can cast normal frost/fire at the boss to proc tiles early without triplicity, However, readying triplicity requires pre-casting the ritual to start (can’t pre-proc tiles). The only time you save is the 3 spells to pre-cast. Using the downtime to charge triplicity doesn’t help when triplicity fundamentally doesn’t add damage.

1 Like
#7

have you guys test it in a dungeon now the patch test it a 2 or 3 days if there is alot a complain feedback they can fix it try for now like a fue of us how play warrior have a issue the fix best to try and see

1 Like
#8

Your tilesets stay up 4 seconds thus having at least-1 or even 2 up when you are hitting your first target with triplicity. Making smarter tiles would make that even more. Unless you go with the rotation you guys still have where the last 2 spells before triplicity are affliction. If that is better now should be checked.

Also on downtime bosses, you can get your tilesets up, cast up triplicity, jump closer and still start with 3 tilesets up on triplicity begin.

#9

While I agree with the reasoning behind this change, that damage drop off seems awfully steep.

1 Like
#10

I cast ressurect 1 spell per second
And a sloppy polymorph at a 1.3 spells per second.
I cast fireballs and frosts about 2.25-2.375 spells per second.

I draw the same drawing velocity…

#11

“Smarter tiles” including an affliction or something aren’t an option when affliction is only once every 5 seconds and frost is every 3 seconds. There are only 3 slots for non-trip tiles because you have to dedicate 2 slots to triplicity to even come close in damage.

The only way to have tiles up for the first spell is to cast extremely fast (slow mages lose, and I thought the whole point of this was to make slow mages stronger) and to not cast afflictions right before. If triplicity does add damage, it stands to reason that it needs the weaknesses for its entire duration, but only one is possible. And again, procs are not consistent at all from the first frost because of the timing change, so it averages out.

Adding in afflictions during triplicity to make up for casting them a little earlier outside reduces the benefits of triplicity (all the spells extra damage barely comes close to making up for the lost dmgs) and puts weaker afflictions with just 2 procs on the boss.

#12

That sickness seriously needs to be a different one from scoundrel btw

#13

If the “original intent” of triplicity was to be this bad to the point where its better off to not cast it in the first place they should just get rid of it.
Slower mages will see dps loss if they cant maintain tiles fast enough with triplicity.

1 Like
#14

Well a slower mage should get more boost out of it because the amount of punished to not punished spells ratio is lower.

#15

The effect is reduced because some/many of the most important spells, the first 5, are weaker the slower you cast.

#16

TLDR; : reactions are a bit exaggerated, still I’d prefer buffing the super of other classes instead of this nerf.

Does anyone remember the time before triplicity… OG people should know best the normal rotations, countless shortcuts and what not been pretty complex already, before reborn. Triplicity is not, like, a core skill, but a rather new addition to the game, which came with reborn. As so many things hardly balanced before launch. The major difference between the actual speed of spellcasting will stay. I’m constantly amazed how good mages think it’s a piece of cake to cast this and that per second. The newer mages I ran with will not ever cast 5 spells in 8secs, no way lol; if they even get a triplicity up, that is, which is the first task.

However, looking at this, I also wonder if it does not make working on max speed during triplicity, and a good deal of the goals of good mages in reborn, pointless. I also wonder if other classes could not just get a better super instead (or any, at all…) which is flexible, rising with skill, accuracy of shots, ranks, weak points, whatever. I don’t have numbers but does any other class even have triple dmg built in their supers or talents … I guess it’s double, at max, and often passive or unrelated to what else you do, like the shamans one. Or leave supers alone but add better talents to classes, additionally, which can be triggered with special skills, like triplicity, somehow. There’s still space for lvl 25 talents btw. Well, just an idea.

Buffing the rest of classes and leaving mage as it is certainly would make the whole community happier!

1 Like
#17

this is a great change! i hope to see other classes get some playtime now and not 100% mage groups to do speedruns :smiley:

#18

Don’t wanna be that one guy but how does this all work? Is it saying that after 9 spells you do 8% more damage instead of what was there before?

#19

You do the same damage you do without any triplicity up, plus whatever percent.

1 Like
#20

So are you saying that, are do 9 percent of the damage I would have done with triplicity before?