Paladin: No ultimate, No lvl 15 talent, no lvl 30 talent, and nerfed in most fights, and requires a healer, and is worse as a secondary tank

as the title said, paladins have no ultimate, lvl 15 talent, or lvl 30 talent, we were nerfed on most fights except bosses with tank busters, and unlike warriors we actually require healers during teir 10s, and we are worse at holding agro on trash mobs

ultimate: the ultimate itself takes forever to charge, and is more likely to get u killed than help. its supposed to be a massive burst heal, but takes around 4 seconds to activate. while activating u have to hold ur hand to ur chest, and during this time u cant use books, use tank buster ability, or even kite. if u ever get low enough wher u need to use it, either kiting or using our other full heal is always better since ya know, it doesnt get us killed by making us a immobile punching bag

lvl 15 talent: this talent buffs our ultimate by either making it give us a damage reduction buff or allowing us to heal others. in the first case the ultimate still has all the shortcomings mentioned earlier, so its useless, and for the second it still has all the shortcomings, the only difference being it can be used on others, but why would a tank ever want to heal others when he is the only one who should be getting attacked

lvl 30 talent: this talent used to be pretty useful, until it was dragged through the mud.either every thirty seconds u can recieve a damage reduction buff or every ten minutes you can get a buff that u can only place on other people that will rez them if and only if they die which also has around a 5 minute duration. for the first option, it used to be good. until it was changed to be activated the same way as a warrior stores there combos. this is horendous because no matter what u do it will immediately trigger. no useing this in a tough situation, just while walking between add packs or right before death when it is too late to save u, but 5 seconds before? then it would have saved u. too bad it triggered while walking there. for the other option, the ability itself is useless. as a tank u cant even use the rez buff on urself, and even if u do place it on someone, if they dont die in 5 mintues the buff wears off and u gain nothing. also any time u rezone or die the 10 minute timer resets. die once in a shard? too bad the timer wont be done until the shard is over. and then it still has the same problem as the first talent choice, always triggering. Yay ur timer is up! too bad u cant actually use it right before a fight starts!

in the latest patch our tank buster ability was change from a big damage decrease on every hammer raise(around 5 seconds) to one big left hand raise blocking 99% damage(every twelve seconds). on bosses with tank busters this is definitly better, but on ones without it and in trash its a nerf. the only buff was protecting us every 5 seconds, blocking a ton of damage from hits during that time. this new one while it blocks almost all damage during its time is active less than half the amount of time the old one is, and the only one blocked more than 50% damage, so we actually take more damage then we used to and there is a added step to access any of that damage reduction #NerfPallyBecauseItsWeakestTankKnowYourPlacePaladinTrash

Warriors can tank almost any boss, with only 2 bosses coming to mind that they cant tank without a healer, mutated rat and minotaur(can probably do this one), with gorgon needing a healer not for the warrior but for the dps. paladin no no do this for some reason we actually need heals on a tier 10, is this a bug?
edit: just got confirmation that warriors can tank sewer rate without a healer but need one for minotaur

on bosses where a tank needs to pick up adds, paladin is worse than warrior. in order to get agro off a dps/healer, we need orbs. we get 2 orbs every 5 seconds, which is not that much threat, not enough threat to pull off a full healing musky. if we are not taking damage, we do not get more orbs to continue trying to pull, and if a musky is healing as we taunt they can immediatly regain agro leading us back to the beginning. warriors can non stop provoke until they have agro, and then only shield block to maintain agro.

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I don’t think the “healer for paladin, no healer for warrior” thing is that big a deal.
taking a warrior and one extra DPS instead of a healer wouldn’t be that far off on overall damage as taking a paladin and a healer.
If you consider the damage a paladin and bard can output and add on the damage boosts the bard can give and the str/int boost a paladin gives it’s probably pretty close to taking a warrior and a DPS instead of a healer, maybe even better.

most lot of the other issues you mentioned do need looking at tho.

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unless ur extra dps is only doing around 15k dps groups with a warrior and no healer are definitly doing more dps than pally plus bard, and since bards do around 6k dps full dps not much heals, ur dps would need to only be doing around 21k dps. most lower tier dps do around 25 with high teir non mage doing 30-40 and high tier mage doing 40+

paladin ~15k + bard ~6k + bard constant 5% damage boost 4-6k + paladin str/int boost ?k.

also pretty sure I’ve seen bard do more than 6k

more like 25-27k+ and that’s not adding the bard ultimate which boosts damage by 20%(on top of the already 5% boost) for ~12 seconds, which combined with ultimates from the DPS is probably adding quite a bit more.

that and there would be absolutely no reason to bring a warrior if paladins could do the same, since
warriors do pretty much no damage at all.
there are also some fight you can do on t10 as a paladin and the ones that you can’t do as a warrior without a healer, it’s better to take a paladin for the extra damage since you already need a healer anyway.

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I can do 10-11K easy on trash running 2 dps songs and 1 healing with my bard.

the paladin in our guild can easily tank

most of our records have been with bard healers. I get excited when someone wants to bring their bard because I know that all the top dpsers get that extra mad bonus. This is besides the point here though I guess. The thread is contending the viability of a paladin/healer combo which really hasn’t been a problem in 5 mans and notably not really an issue in raids… I would like to get @Burnator 's opinion on it really if he wants to.

Interesting no healer needed on Lich King :thinking:

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Palladian has a lot harder with trash after the last update. Going no healer on the trash mobs is equal to death. I can take the tankbusters now, but overall I take more damage. A lot of mechanics got broken with the last update, and I would probably prefer it as it used to be before we got the tankbuster shield.

I more or less traded two controls damage reductors to one 1.5 sec immortality, that’s basicly the same as having a verry limited warier shield.

The ult talent REALLY needs to be removed. Not picking it seems to fix the ult getting stuck problem.

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So it definitely sounds like there are some bugs mentioned in here that need to be addressed…can we get a list of current bugs that you all are experiencing sans the Warrior/balancing notes?

It sounds like one is the ultimate ability getting stuck, and another is the new way of triggering the Plea talents (with the “warrior charge move”) is really unreliable? Were there others that I didn’t gather? We can work on getting those fixed in the short-term.

Yes. If you so much as lift your offhand from your thigh it kicks off. If you could require the hand be some distance from the body it will be better.

On T10 the adds destroy paladins without a healer

On T10 no healer?

What is ur goal for paladin? To be equal to warrior? To be a off tank? To be a useless class that does it’s job worse than others like ranger?
Paladins can tank T10s because frankly, T10s are easy. But no top clear time on any of the dungeons was cleared with a paladin, which speaks enough for itself

Yes same for warrior

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Doesn’t a top speed mostly depend on how lucky you get with rezzes anyway?

To an extent, but above that is how quickly and effiently u can continue killing in the dungeon, if u have slow dps no luck on rezzes is gonna give u a top time

While slower dps does matter, It is not, in my opinion, nearly as significant as wiping / having a few extra poisoners or colossi show up

Edit: Kamina,did you mention the paladin’s constant incoming damage reduction in your post? I feel that’s an important thing to remember.

I just logged in after kind of a long time, the lvl30 talent was almost impossible to not activate by accident when you do anything. I really do not think the matter of needing heals and such are a big deal for pally since its quite different playstyle and you will probably not care for that little loss of DPS (in relation to all DPS) under normal circumstances (obviously bad for time records but then again who knows, pally feels really good on Lich King for example). I also felt like aggro generation for suddenly appearing adds is a bit more tight on the paladin due to lower range on the taunt libram and the mission to be able to have 2 charges ready at any time (which is hugely dangerous as I used to get 3 charges easily from getting autoattacked before, although this information might be outdated havent tested for a few weeks now), but I still think its okay since again we are a different class with different strenghts and weaknesses going into tanking, PvP etc.

Other than that I think this topic touches on a lot of problems the Paladin has in terms of PvE content, I especially feel the pala ultimate problem as its just both underwhelming in effect and absolutely unfeasible practically.

Those are two of them. Ult getting stuck seems to be related to the damage reduction talent associated with it.

-On the quest the shield animation gets stuck in front of you quite often until the next time you activate it.

-books sometimes don’t activate when grabbed, requiring multiple tries.

-Description ad Palladian in compass book is out of date. How they work is mostly just guess work.

-hammer hits have a delay on registering and have a bit of a strange hitbox when throwing. Worst against moving enemies and players.

  • in case of high latency you can fully fill up your orbs without them showing.

The plea talent goes off a bit whenever. The warier activates the charge by holding your hand to the side slightly behind you, but that’s the standard position for the off hand for a paladin. Having it back to razing your off hand would be nice, and making the Light’s Defense trigger activated, making it a bit more exsact.

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  • Switching zones takes out all your orbs, and restarts the timers for all of your abilities, which (unlike for every other class in the game) takes about 20s to reset (15s to get orbs to 5, 5 more seconds to have lightning call ready again)

Less a bug and more of a serious problem:

  • Paladins have terrible ability to hold aggro. With two attacks every 5s, plus whatever defending against attacks brings you in, you get max 10ish attacks in a tankbuster cycle against a solo enemy, or maybe three hammer smashes against a group. (I’m assuming 4-6 orbs generated by taking damage, which is probably on the high side).

Super easy to pull off a paladin, especially to re-pull after losing aggro (because you go from 8-10 orbs in 12s to 4 orbs tops). Paladin loses aggro, chances are paladin does not have any orbs left, paladin uses local taunt if off cd, enemy maybe gets one attack in and is immediately pulled off again.

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