I nust think if they would fix the shortcuts that would be fine. Again it is a bug and if someone has to draw the actual rune ( like they are supposed to) I think that would solve some issues.
Check out Runic Diversity, Weakness from Affliction, and tiles. That system is already in place and rewards players for choosing rotation over Fireball spam.
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The main thing i play on Orbus and the main reason i am still playing is because of runemage. The difference with this class and others, and i know this has been said before, is that it takes considerable skill to be able to cast the spells consistently. The Mages that you see who can spam that fast are all really high level and or have been practacing for a long time. the first time i started working on the D method was at level 12 and still now at 30 it is causing me trouble. where as with the other Dps classes it takes a relatively low amount of skill to get that high amount of damage that i am getting now.
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It’s not a bug. It’s how the casting system works. It’s the evolution of spellcasting. If spells were harder to cast then new mages would get completely shafted.
The things you want are already in place, you just haven’t gotten to the point where you can see it yet. I know it looks like mage is the king and everything else sucks, but that’s not the case. It’s visuals that are throwing you off. I recommend you play the game and enjoy the parts you can. Don’t get caught up in the balancing of things because trust me, it’s being taken care of. Just have fun playing the game.
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The system exists, but it isn’t designed in a way that it attracts players to do that. At lower tiers, it doesn’t feel better, so people are going to be naturally drawn to doing it the easy way - spamming a single spell.
Also, rather than skill to cast consistently, I’d say it is more or less considerable practice. Some players can learn faster than others, some players simply can’t do it as a result of some physical issue, but the important part is practicing until you learn it.
Now, even knowing that spamming one spell isn’t the way to get the highest dps, which is easier? Learning to spam one spell repeatedly or learning several spells to do in a rotation? And which looks more impressive: spamming a stream of fireballs or learning to throw rotations?
Most of my suggestions have been more or less focused on trying to find a way to push newer mages into getting away from the fireball spam and more towards rotations and perfect casts. Though with what has been brought up here, that does bring to mind another idea. Make it so that those rotations and perfect casts LOOK more impressive.
I’m all for change if the data supports it. I highly recommend if you want to see a change, gather data, put it together, and then push.
Examples:
https://community.orbusvr.com/search?q=Dps%20data
Note that in these cases, a lot of data was gathered, numbers crunched, and suggestions put forward. This took a considerable amount of time and effort from not just me and Scott, but several members of the community.
Let me be clear: I am 100% in favor of changes that the data supports. Right now you have no data to support your change proposals, and the data gathered by the community suggests dps is where it needs to be. If you can think of a way to test that supports your ideas I’m more than happy to run tests. I’ll start keeping my dps parses with levels and classes so I can show you an overall look at the class balance when I can.
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It is a bit hard to get the data for what I am trying to talk about though since the issue is a bit different from raw dps (plus, I’m on a Quest 2 untethered).
What I’m talking about has less to do with dps and more of ms per kill and time to arrive (player) and time to arrive (attack). I’m not sure if the parsers have the ability to track that.
Raw dps might matter more for end game, but I don’t want end game changed. I want early to mid game changed without affecting end-game dps, which is harder to do.
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Yes please do. I am downloading the parse app on my Rift setup / account since cannot use it on my Q2. How Is draw this B > but you can get away with O correct? That’s like saying I have to curve my bullet to get more dmg but i can just shoot straight with a slight cant to my gun and it would work. ( it doesnt obviously). Again I understand the “visuals” but when you clearly see the mobs melting before they can get remotely close to mage that is not visuals that is proof. As a scoundrel if I start with my highest power move and my 4 other rounds I have there is no way the dps is the same vs 20 fireballs. Also Max it is definitely not high levels that do the spam. Lvl 1 mages are spamming them. Just walk through town and see all the lvl 1-10 mages spamming fireballs.
Not sure if its same thing you are referring to but when myself or anyone playing mage unleashes a stream of fireballs at a mob it is dead by time it gets halfway to them / me. No other dps does that ( at least not at 30 or lower). I am limited to how fast / how much I can do speed wise on my shaman or scoundrel.
I can literally two shot enemies in dungeons as a scoundrel or ranger. Until you start providing data/numbers, I’m done with this. You’ve made it clear you do not want to change your view based on the evidence we’ve shown you. I gave you the numbers. I linked you to the tests that were run and the results. I’ve explained why mage looks, but isn’t actually as overpowered as you think. You agreed that the system that’s already in the game would fix the nonexistent issue. There’s nothing more I can do here.
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Just to put in my input the DPS are fine where there are; To hit the max on each you need practice and to hit good number on each you need practice. You say that mage is uncapped and while that is true there is also a max amount your body can move. Its still limited just not as visibly.
I run with rangers and scoundrels who pull high numbers and can safely say (like Mishka can) that the DPS classes are balanced. I also get that this is at mid level but as Mishka said it holds up there too; we have numbers to back up those claims and the time it takes to get to the level to hit higher numbers take more practice than you think.
For example you would need to parse it either by someone else or yourself (on quest 2 you can use virtual desktop) and try to hit that 60-70k. You also misunderstand that mage attacks are a moderate damage whereas scoundrel and ranger have big hits (Charged piercing can do 200k+ in one hit) But you don’t see people saying thats a problem.
That is purely due to practice, I know oval does not sound hard but I would recommend you get someone to parse your damage to see where your damage truely lies. Yes mage can melt before an enemy gets to them but so can scoundrel and ranger to an extent.
Mage takes the most practice to improve at followed by ranger and then scoundrel and their DPS reflects that. Its very hard to change midgame without changing endgame, and then if you change midgame something like shaman is meta and when they get better they realize they wasted their time with a DPS class that has no improvement to do in any meaningful way.
Mage also does the least amount of damage at low levels due to that missing muscle memory. A new player who gets to level 10 on mage usually does less than if they chose scoundrel or ranger. However if they stick with it and become one of the top players they are higher than the other choices.
Its a level 15 and 20 talent of course it does not feel better at low levels. But the reason people never learn it is due to there really only being 1 guide which is a long winded forum post. Its also way harder which reborn players seem to hate.
Like Mishka said if you have no numbers to back up your posts they will only go into the ground.
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Ok, I’m gonna be the bad guy here because it’s obvious that you will not listen to any of the people that have way more knowledge and experience about this game. Your mage is level one, and your highest level is a 27. (I get that you have another character, but you talk on this thread like it’s your main, so I’m gonna assume it is).
Do you have a level 30?
Because if not, you are comparing DIFFERENT LEVELS DPS and trying to pass it off as an argument to get mages nerfed. Imagine in another MMO that they would balance a lower level melee against a higher level one. That would be complete insanity, but that’s exactly what you’re doing here.
If you do have a level 30, please let me know your characters name, I’d love to be proven wrong, but at current it just seems like you don’t really know what you’re talking about here.
What other MMO’s do you play? Maybe I can put this in an easier light for you to understand
For everybody else that does know what they’re talking about. Just stop. It’s obvious that the arguments are just gonna keep coming, and the easiest way to make this go away is just to ignore it.
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There is not one path. There is not even a right path. There is only your path.
It is similar, but not quite the same.
I think the issue with runemages in non-endgame content has a lot less to do with dps and more of hit speed for the same dps.
As a ranger, while I could potentially kill an enemy before my team can hit the enemy, I run precision, so I naturally don’t do that unless I’m going out of my way to. And I don’t do that because I try to let everyone get a hit in unless I’ll die otherwise. That said, if I do end up with aggro, I lose damage quickly. As a scoundrel, I could also potentially kill an enemy quickly, but I have rarely needed to and again, I don’t. As a shaman, I can do high damage, but my damage is rather dependent on my orbs spawning and of course placing down my totems, so there is little pressure for me to try to burst down non-bosses.
As a Runemage, I focus more on steady, closer to perfect casts than spam casts. Again, this means I don’t kill enemies before my party can get hits in as if my damage is too high, I can spread my hits around.
The problem is not the dps or how fast a player CAN kill an enemy. The problem is the mentality of players who will rush in and kill everything without giving other players a chance to get a hit in. While technically it could be possible for rangers and maybe even scoundrels (if high enough level) to kill an enemy before the party can get a hit in, most that I’ve seen rarely break the order of tank in, dps shoot.
Runemages on the other hand, I’d say it is about 50/50 if the runemage is level 30 that they’ll shoot first and just kill the enemy before the party can get a hit in (unless the party start to early shoot). Feels like almost 100% that the runemage will try to not give the party a chance to hit if that runemage is the tank.
The reason why this is an issue is, as I’ve said before, non-boss enemies are about 2/3rds of my exp in dungeons (up to about level 21). 1/3rd of my exp comes from bosses and dungeon completion (up to about level 21). At level 21, this moves closer to an even split as I get more exp from the end-reward and it seems less from the individual enemies. Now, thing is that you can still rush through a dungeon (I did so twice earlier, 7-8 minutes if no bard) and still let everyone get participation - so there is honestly very little reason to rush to the point of not giving the team exp.
To really test this, we would need three tests, someone who can record, someone who can spam cast fireballs fast enough that we can see the speed difference for time to hit, and someone that can change between classes and fire to hit a target so that we can record the travel speed for each attack type. (Shamans could also demonstrate slow throw, auto throws (the speed does change a bit depending on how you throw them), and fast throw).
We would need to first test the various projectiles and how fast they reach an enemy from max distance (as well as what is the feasible max distance). This would be basically be what I mentioned above where you time various projectiles.
We would then need to test various projectiles vs movement speed (how fast you can travel). This would basically be easiest to test against a fireball spam due to ease of timing. You would want to test from max distance, how long it takes for a warrior to dash to the enemy vs travel time. How long for a paladin to (without slingshot), reach the enemy. How long for a shaman to reach a target (get close enough to reasonably start attacking) with consideration of teleport. How long for other classes to reach a reasonable range at which they can attack.
We would finally then test, using various distances (max possible, max effective, realistic positioning), how fast each class can kill each enemy given the same levels (so you would need level 30s to test or a lot of level 1 alts or both for a fuller test). You could go for testing on weaker enemies or stronger enemies. The goal would be to look at how fast, starting from the initial shot+initial hit does it take to kill an enemy. This test would require players that don’t care how the results (and similar gear) end up as players who want a certain result might end up skewing the results whether consciously or unconsciously. You want to test for both initial shot and initial hit because some players might wait for the enemies to be aggroed to start attacking and thus initial hit becomes important. Other players might just shoot right away knowing that the runemage is going to attack, so that is where initial shot comes into play. This would probably take the longest to test as well due to the various combinations of weapons/talents that exist, which may affect each class’s dps differently, tilesets which affect dps, and differing enemies with varying health.
Using these three tests, you can then do simulations of various scenarios (you could also live test those scenarios as well).
Other things to test would include:
Projectile vs personnel race (again, could be simulated instead)
Reaction timing and comparison to time to kill.
Bard ability to start combat and gain participation over the course of a dungeon, such as crypt.
Again, the issue with runemage is not the dps. It never was the actual dps that was the issue. Runemage dps is fine. DPS is only really a concern with bosses and maybe stronger adds, but there is little to no issue there. I mentioned this before, but the three things to look at are:
Time to hit (basically, attack travel speed)
Time to arrive (how long it takes for a player to move.
Time to kill (how many ms starting from the first attack to the last hit does it take for an enemy to die).
Other things to consider:
(Bard specific issue: how often you can initiate combat against an enemy via crescendos and mallet throws and how this applies to participation in dungeons (Events are a smaller issue due to only needing 3 points of participation)).
(There is also a bit of the issue of whether doing damage at max speed would increase chances of injury - this is the reason why I advocate a change in how runemage works rather than the other issues).
Again though, I’ve mentioned a few things now about other ways that the issue can be dealt with outside of a rebalancing (because it would be hard to rebalance mid/early without affecting end-game).
Realistically, I can’t do these tests without a new computer (I don’t have the storage space and my computer can’t link).
Well, I have a level 19 Mage and I have spent hours trying to master the “Oval” and it is not the easy peasy thing you imagine. In fact, I can easily cast the B for Fire 2 or Knockback or Affliction much easier than the “easy, peasy oval” you think this is. I am lucky to cast the fire with the oval or pretzel method. For some reason, it eludes me.
I also have a level 30 Scoundrel and it is a new 30 and I have had Mishka save my life in Wastelands and I can tell you he is one heck of a player and it shows he has spent a lot of hours learning his class. I have been here 3 weeks and just learned the proper bullet rotation for my scoundrel (thanks Mishka for the link to Scott’s Scoundrel Advanced!) so I could hit higher DPS. I was just using cards and doing bang bangs until I learned that pausing was a Godsend.
I want to learn my mage, but I know it is time consuming. Every day I spend time practicing because the class is definately advanced. The class has more DPS potential because it also takes more skill for those that want to learn. I struggle with it. So, trust me as a newer mage, there is no such thing as an easy oval or pretzel. It takes learning a skill. Not to mention your armor is cloth so you die in less hits. I will master it though. I just will do it the right way; with daily practice. So, just because you see some people with this skill, it does not mean it was easy to learn. It takes time and dedication. Yep, even a simple oval takes time to learn. I know I can’t cast it. I still use the B.
Oh… I was told by a mutual friend to say thanks to Mishka for saving a Damsel in distress. Thank You! I still never filled that G.R.I.N.D.E.R. I deleted it and started over because the last ring was just too much for me!
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Hit me up sometime and we’ll fill that grinder up 
There are definitely exceptions to the rule that people need practice. Like, I’ve done archery IRL and my first VR game was an archery VR game, so aside from the physics being a bit off, it was easier for me to pick up archery.
Runemage, I’m somewhat inconsistent if I’m trying to speedcast (mainly because my angle is a bit off so I have to look down a little when I cast), but I’ve drawn these runes IRL before (I like studying mythology and lore and runes are part of it). These runes are basically the same as Norse runes, but with modifications. The main issue I have is that the proportions are a bit off from what I’m used to (I think the runes that the game uses are more the modern ones and I’m more used to the older ones) and drawing in air with the wand is annoying (would be easier if I could change my grip to be closer to a pen, but haven’t had any luck with that.)
Then you have people who are able to naturally be good at things without any prior experience, or who have relatable experience, such as art or calligraphy for runemage. These are exceptions to the rule, but they do exist.
Now, I have noticed that since I started talking about the exp and participation issue, some of those level 30 runemages have slowed down a little (whether coincidental or intentional, I don’t know). Particularly the ones whose names I recognize have slowed down the spam enough that I can actually get hits in. At least one person told me that they didn’t know about the exp thing. There are still those that spam anyways even when party members complain, but I think those are the ones that just do one dungeon each day.
As one of the mages who used to fire spam through dungeons, and who’s got several friends who do the same thing (it’s how we grind overworld legendary drops), I can assure you that you calling out the XP loss definitely caused a lot of us to slow down that and if a player makes any mention that we’re causing less fun for them, we’ll cut it off immediately and use the time to practice spamming other spells like Arcane explosion or Frost 3. Most of the time we hear positive things (“that was the easiest dungeon!” “Thanks for helping us mow them down!”), but ya, any mention of wanting the mage to chill is usually received well we’re all playing a game. We’re all here to have fun!
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I just need the Mines Dungeon to get the key to do the tomb raider MSQ so I can hopefully finish the questline. I have only seen you once and that was a couple of nights ago I mean, I would love to fill that last ring but I don’t see it happening until I get some good gear. I am Gnomerci. A lowly new Scoundrel who tries so hard to solo. I do not want to be a part of a big Fellowship (too much chatter and my life is complicated) so mainly I work alone unless I can get lucky and find a group looking to do what I am doing. I hope to see you again soon. Until then… I will keep watching your videos!
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Yeah, like I don’t mind it as long as they let the party get one hit in on each enemy (my bard gets hit the hardest with that since I’m sure you know how bard participation works) or for players that are learning, let the new players learn how to do dungeons and how to prioritize certain enemies.
It is mainly just the ones that rush anyways or refuse (particularly the runemages the queue as all classes and refuse to do tank/healer and rush because “the dungeon would take too long” otherwise (even though they can still do it quickly and it might take like a minute longer to complete the dungeon than full rushing it)) that bothers me. It is bad for my exp, it is bad for newbies since it teaches them bad habits (including that it is okay to queue up as a role they don’t intend to play and that fireball spam is all that they need to do).
That a lot of you guys are starting to slow down a bit is nice for me too since I’ve been able to dial back a bit on switching to exp grab focus (which was definitely causing some chaos) and more on properly doing dps. Like, I was going to quit because the community was starting to irritate me, but it has improved since.
Like, most of what I enjoy doing is teaching newer players. I like teaching people stuff. I like seeing people take what I teach them and expand on it. I like having the entire community improve. In other games, I’ve been kicked out of guilds because instead of top members of the guild, I’d focus on improving the newer players or even outsiders. That is how much I enjoy teaching newer players.
Like, I am a huge grinder. I basically am always in a dungeon grabbing exp as fast as I can, but if I see someone that needs help, I’ll cancel my queue despite having waited an hour for it to help them. If I see someone that is still learning, I’ll do what I can to teach them.
That is why the spam frustrates me as a player.
It also annoys me because it teaches these kids that watch them to imitate them. Now, if someone is doing fireball spam knowing the risks, that is one thing, but when they are, by actions, (whether they mean to or not) teaching others who don’t know the risks, don’t know safety precautions, etc. to do the same thing… That just upsets me as someone who sees children as precious and who wants people in general to be well.
(Since it seems we are using this thread as a chat thread now… Hey Gnomerci, how have you and your kid been?)