DPS ( runemage) observations

Hello everyone Rivendor here. Just wanted to give some feedback from my first month on board. I am loving the game first and foremost it is amazing. That being said I have noticed some huge balancing issues when it comes to DPS. Yes I know it’s been said a million times runemage are either OP or the other classes are not balanced correctly. I love playing DPS but as I experiment with other classes I’ve realized nothing comes close to runemage.

There needs to be some change made. Either a mana point limit etc ( every other class has some kind of limiting factor, bullets, timers for orbs, etc etc) or maybe a max of 2 spells per second or just simply do not allow “shortcut” casting. I don’t understand why there is a clear picture you are supposed to learn to cast but can bypass it by doing something not even remotely close.

I would love to see more variety but every dungeon or person taking down world bosses etc when it comes to DPS is a mage. It’s almost a guarantee there will be a mage or 2 in everything you do. With all the shortcuts for casting it’s not even “that difficult” to do ( not saying it’s the easiest but definitely 100000x easier than actually drawing what you are supposed to).

I am going to move over to support or tanks and give them a shot now. I hate feeling like I need to play a certain class ro really shine. Yes other dps are viable but there is no denying in PVE a mage will melt anything long before any other dps will

Hopefully you all have a wonderful day / weekend. I just wanted to chime in my .02 after 30 days not that it matters.

Heya! So until late last year this was definitely an issue. The good news is the DPS was overhauled quite a bit and things are balanced nicely for PvE. The thing that seems to throw people off is the visuals. It’s very impressive to see a stream of fireballs, which is why people do it. However, you can hit insane numbers with scoundrels and Rangers too. To put it in perspective, the highest sustained (over a minute) mage DPS was 129k. Ranger was 104k without max potions and the wrong rings/armor affixes, and Scoundrel was 103(?)k. Rangers and Scoundrels can certainly hit ridiculous numbers, but you wouldn’t notice by the looks because it’s not impressive.

Mages are still the highest potential Dps, as they should be due to skill requirements. Contrary to popular belief, shooting a nonstop stream of fireballs will not get you max dps. There’s a rotation that needs to be followed precisely to hit top numbers, and even then there are VERY few players who can approach that coveted 100k mark.

I think I still have my combat graphs from the tests before, during, and after the balance patch if you’re interested.

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Thanks for the reaponse. I have read quite a few of ( believe they were yours) raw #s comparing the classes. Even with the above #s thats over a 25% increase in DPS vs the next closest class. Also to get that DPS with scoundrel for instance you have to charge, burn, etc etc a rotation like most classes in most MMOs but mage is literally just spam an oval. See where this becomes problematic?

Also I am speaking as the majority of “normal” players not top tier. If you take someone spamming fireballs vs a scoundrel doing a normal poison rotation etc the mage will almost always win. At least in everything I’ve seen. You can just see how fast a mob goes down while scoundrels or whoever are hitting it vs the mage who just cast 20 fireballs ar once. I did a rough # count vs the classes just myself messing around and it was insane difference.

The oval spam does not reach those numbers. You’re looking at maybe 70-80k with Fire spam. To hit 100k as a mage you need those afflictions. Then add Frost for tiles and Runic diversity. Scott has a post about mage maximum dps. I’ll see if I can link it here in a minute

The problem there is anything you do to nerf mage hurts the newer players as well. Mage will be your lowest or highest dps, rarely in between. It takes time to get proficient at it, much more so than shooting a bow or gun.

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That’s debatable though as far as how difficult the 2 are. To play a “lazy” mage and spam oval is relatively easy ( that’s the point of doing oval spams). Someone doing that vs a scoundrel for instance keeping a good rotation going is in my opinion more difficult. There is more to manage. More limits etc. I get what you are saying at the highest tier with best seasoned players it may even out a bit ( still 1/4 advantage for mage eith your #s). There is a reason there are so many mages running around. :slight_smile:

I always recommend to play what you enjoy and like to play. You should not feel pressured by someone at Youtube shooting more fireballs per second than the majority of VR headsets have FPS
cough in Meshka :upside_down_face:

When I`m on my mage, i like to add lines to the spells to make nice drawings that will cast spells ^^

I only play mage when I want to look impressive. The higher numbers come from me playing Ranger :smiley:

I honestly hate the spammers at this point because it is just not fun to play with them in random queues. I said it before, about 2/3rds of my exp come from the trash mobs. Only 1/3rd comes from the bosses and dungeon completion. So playing with runemage spammers is annoying because they make it very hard to get a hit in on the enemies without doing some really bad practices, like not waiting for the tank to aggro, doing a shot and then continuing to run (because otherwise the runemage will just keep going forward, etc.).
Even without that, it just doesn’t feel fun. I feel like I’m better off just pulling off my headset and reading while I wait for the party to reach the bosses and just fighting bosses since the bosses are the only things I’m going to be hitting if I wait for the tank to pull (because the enemies will be dead by then). That or just leaving because obviously they don’t need me to tank/heal anyways since they are killing everything before I can get close enough to get participation in (this issue is especially bad if I’m playing bard - to the point that I only play bard on bosses now and only if I think the boss won’t die before I can finish swapping).

You don’t really see this behavior (or issue) with runemages that do proper rotations, rangers that actually do decent damage, scoundrels that do decent damage, shamans, etc. That is why I have been trying to push for some way to push runemages away from the spam. I know from personal experience how annoying it can be and I’m not the only one, just probably the most vocal one because I want this game to be fun and attract more players.

It feels like the ones that focus on spam are often the players who are really impatient and will queue up in a dungeon as every class just to get in, teaching newer players that it is okay to do so. It is a bad practice to get into (admittedly, I have some bad practices myself, but I do try to explain that what I’m doing is not normal).

I personally am still trying to learn how to do rotations (probably Affliction and Affliction 2 are my worst combat spells right now (I can’t do resurrections or portal at all when I try to draw them properly)

Now, in unsharded dungeons (where spam is an issue), you could say that the dps isn’t a big deal.

If a mob has 100k hp and a ranger is doing 80k damage per hit once per second (just for the sake of argument), vs a runemage that is doing 80k dps as a constant stream of damage, that is a difference of 2 seconds for a kill vs 1.25 seconds for a kill. There just sometimes is not enough time to get a hit in unless you body block the mage or start the combat yourself (both are bad habits, the later is a bad habit for non-tank specifically, the first is a bad habit for any class).

The problem with spammers is less about the dps and more of that they tend to not get other players to get a hit in. So if say someone in the party needs undead for their mission (or some other dungeon mob), being unable to get a hit in is basically locking that player out of mission progress. This in turn teaches those players that they need to get a hit in no matter what, which leads to bad habits. These bad habits then start to spread to others as people start just jumping in as soon as possible for the sake of exp and/or mission progress.

(I could spam fireball for short bursts, but it starts to hurt my wrist or bones, so I don’t do that for health reasons and because I know from a personal experience how annoying it can be once the “how impressive” reaction wears off. Nothing like having to do an extra run of a dungeon to finish your mission before reset when you don’t have much time to play (With events, runemage spam is rarely an issue). (And before someone says: Just find a fellowship that can do runs with you!.. I’m already in a fellowship and I’m talking about having to party with a newbie who had a mission to finish their mission before reset and where I had to queue as any role to try to get in quickly so we had time to do a dungeon properly.)

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It’s not me wanting to be “as good” as another mage. It’s just the pure difference in dps if you are not mage is ridiculous. If I play mage and spam fireballs literally doing 1 thing over and over which is easy my dps is insane and the mobs die before they even reach me. If I play my scoundrel or whatever I have to do rotations, card burns, manage my bullets etc etc meanwhile my dps is nowhere near my mage dps.

Yea I didnt even mention this particular issue. Mages can kill most mobs within 2 seconds.

Even if u say after 5 casts the dmg of the spell you are using will drop by 5% per cast
so its 5 full hits then 95-90-85-80% dmg and so on until you use another spell.
Or like take a Icon for dmg spells and one icon for Support spells and they recharge each other.
So a Dmg spell will charge the Support icon and Support Spells will charge the Dmg icon.
This will bring variety to the spam at least and maybe then mages will learn how to use Pushback xD
I don´t wanna talk about how much mages can cast 4+ fireballs per second, but when it comes to pushback its like 1 successful cast out of 10 trys.

But I don`t know, i use my mage mainly to teleport around.

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I like that idea. There are infinite ideas that would fix the issue. If they do a pre release test ( idk how changes work in this game) and dmg ends up too low they can tweak. If mages do 2 or 3 fireballs for more dmg instead of a ton for decent it could even out ( and by having a set limit like e very other dps).

I think another issue is that the dps is properly balanced at high levels and end game players where you are hitting those high dps, but it probably isn’t that well balanced for lower content, which is where the newbies are more likely to be at.

Like, as a ranger, I can outdps some higher level runemages, some scoundrels, even some rangers (and I’m not doing it perfectly since once I get tired, I start doing less accurate, but less tiring shots)).

This is because many players are not optimizing their damage at lower levels, are still learning that class’s mechanics, etc. VS higher level players where they are optimizing and pushing that high dps.

That said, my dps is definitely low (only around 10-20k dps (varying based on the state of the enemies and party buffs) at level 19ish, not even 20% of the 100k+ point) since I don’t curve much on scoundrel (health reasons mostly) so most of my DPS is based on cards and I save a healing card instead of saving cards to boost my DPS and on my Ranger, I’m usually saving my charged shot + trap for interrupts and I’m usually not using DPS arrows in dungeons.

And pushback is starting to be one of my better spells, but even then it is like 1 of 3 tries unless I shortcut (way easier for me to shortcut).

I think I mentioned a few ideas in the other runemage thread to push people away from relying on F2 spam. I personally am hoping for something more like ranger (with the option to spam and the option to do steady rotations), but either way, if nothing is done about it, then nothing will change.

And here is something to note: People who are unsatisfied with something aren’t going to necessarily complain about it as many will just quit. So the question is which would be a bigger part of the community-the runemages that would leave if there was a significant change or the players that would leave because they get annoyed. That isn’t something we have the information to reasonably figure out, but something to consider.

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Mage has been nerfed twice and both times it happened, a large portion of end game players quit soon after. I don’t know the exact numbers, but it’s happened twice and neither time went well with the mages in the community.

Yes, but like I said, we would have to compare it to a number we don’t really have access to - the number of people who start playing, see runemages spamming, realize how it affects them, and quit because they get annoyed.

That said, I don’t want the end-game mage dps touched. Just the spamming part so that alternatives to spamming are more pleasing to players learning how to play runemage.

Basically, I want it where in terms of end-game potential, nothing changes, but where players that are learning how to play runemage can see non-spam as being viable.

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I understand why they do that and it happens in every mmo ever made. I’ve been playing MMOs since Ultima Online / EQ days and have accounts for just about any game out. Whatever class is meta or OP etc always has the biggest draw to it ( I mean why not want to play the best class). When it gets balanced to be the same as other classes. Even you yourself said they are about 25% higher dps. People do not want to re learn the class or deal with not being “top dog” anymore. I have been there many times and I either adapt or change classes. You can never please everyone but I think most can agree one particular class is way above the others and one way or another something needs to change ( whether nerf or balances to other classes etc)

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To be fair, i believe that mage should do the most damage out of any class, considering it takes the most skill to be good at it… A +6 scoundrel can pull in the 70-80k range way easier than a mage can. Trust me, I’ve beaten almost all of the content in the game, and in my opinion, I learned to play a high level scoundrel WAY faster than it took me to learn mage.

I think there is one big thing people don’t understand about how dps works, and that is that in high level content, you have to actually DO the mechanics. Standing still and shooting a dummy is way different than fighting an actual boss in a 15 shard or raid, where almost every missed mechanic will kill you. Scoundrel has a huge advantage because it has the most mobility out of all the classes.
Shaman has to be close enough to the boss to throw their orbs,
Ranger has to keep 15/30 meters away depending on talents,
and Mages have to stand still to have the greatest dps output that they can,
Whereas scoundrel can walk around freely, only having to hit a rank shot every few charged shots, (which isnt even that far away). In all other MMOs I play, DPS and balance isnt based off of standing still damage on a dummy, but rather the top parses from each raid or dungeon.

Balanced should be based off of how classes perform in ACTUAL scenarios, rather than the classes theoretical top DPS

So, from what I’ve read through all of this, it seems like it’s mainly affecting lower content such as unshaded and stuff. The balance for dps is perfect tbh, every endgame player I know is absolutely content with the current state of dps. There isn’t any need to change mechanics or damage to them, it’s completely unnecessary, especially after just fixing it. You really don’t understand how bad it was before.

The easiest fix for the complaints I’ve seen so far would be to try and balance dungeon queue. That isn’t ideal though, considering sometimes it’s hard enough to get into a dungeon at times, but it seems like it may be necessary to make people happy if there’s so much of a problem with endgame players breezing through them

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