DPS ( runemage) observations

Suggestions
#21

Definitely agree that balance should be based on actual scenarios. That is why my DPS numbers are often different from others in MMOs - their numbers are based on dummies while my numbers are based on actual gameplay.

(As a ranger, I have to keep 21/31 meters away since I don’t gain orbs until 21 and I don’t gain the bigger bonus for orbs until 31 (based on the rangefinder on my bow), is this a glitch?)

Mages can move and dps, but it is probably way harder to do that. Mages that can do that definitely deserve to be doing higher dps, imo. That said, mages can do dps easily at any range (up to their max range).

Shaman can throw orbs from pretty far away (I’ve had to throw orbs almost halfway across airship before because otherwise I couldn’t get a hit in due to the runemage who would just blast fireball 2s the entire time), but it is definitely more work to do that.

Scoundrels do benefit a bit from being somewhat further away, but also can get closer as needed, but their dps can be somewhat more random due to the cards being in random order. Whether or not that rng varies the dps a lot or just a little depends on the scoundrel’s judgement and skill.

So the DPS for each class will depend on the target(s), the buffs provided, the debuffs provided, positioning, etc.

Like for my Ranger vs my Runemage:

Earth Blast boss, I tend to do less dps because I have to rush in or prep a teleport. As a runemage, I can stay fairly close to the boss and my teleport is less urgent (or I can cast with each step I take).
Rat boss, my dps depends on where the tank wants to tank the boss since I tend to position myself to be able to hit either rat spawn. As a rune mage, it is more stable for the boss since I can control where my spells go as needed.
Slime boss, my dps depends completely on whether or not I’m being targeted, since it is harder to get distance when being chased. Runemage, also get affected since it is harder to cast and teleport run (would be easier if there was an option to remap controls).
Lich King/Gorgon/Minotaur is pretty stable for either class. (slightly less dps on gorgon due to positioning)
Airship bosses I end up about the same for the first boss in terms of stability, but for the second boss, I tend to have to put myself a bit more in danger as Ranger.
I haven’t done dps for mines or temple since I’ve only done those shards and I main healer, not dps.

But based on that, I can say that I actually find Ranger harder than Runemage for positioning reasons except on Slime boss if I’m targeted. That said, I am able to finish casting and still have time to deal with mechanics with a few exceptions such as the Mines, so it may be different for others.

I’ve also noticed that most runemages that spam cast F2 don’t move their spells, they just stream it as a line towards their target (and so if you step in front of them, they will just keep hitting you in the back until you step away or they might tell you to stop body blocking them while still hitting you in the back).

My personal opinion on Runemage difficulty:
Runemage is probably the easiest for hitting that “70k” marker, but probably the hardest to hit the 100k+ marker.

Basically, getting good dps as far as unsharded dungeons go is easy, but trying to hit those really high numbers is where runemages will start to have trouble.

Like I’ve said, the balance for dps is probably set for endgame content. It is the early/mid game where there are some issues, but the problem with not balancing that is that it causes bad habits.

I think one of the easiest fixes for dungeons in terms of breezing through them would be to normalize player stats for unsharded. Right now my understanding is that unsharded dungeons try to level match based on party level, but if instead dungeons are set to level 15 and your stats are set to be based on level 15 or under, that would prevent breezing through them (though experienced players would still do them faster). That said, it would also make dungeons take potentially longer.

As for the experience issue, I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but if everyone who made an attempt to participate gained experience/mission progress even if they don’t get a hit in, then that wouldn’t be an issue.

#22

Yeah, those suggestions could work. Not trying to be rude, (it’s 6am and I’m more than likely coming across as rather grumpy) but the devs more than likely won’t (and quite frankly shouldn’t) mess around with the dps classes as they stand currently. It would cause more issues than resolve imo.

However, suggesting turnarounds for balancing specific things like the dungeon queue and exp contributions, would be a far more productive way of going about it.

It never was just a mage issue with killing mobs indiscriminately, I myself am very much a fiend for doing that as my ranger main. After so much time playing, I barely even remember they give much exp, I just wanna get that sweet sweet daily boost

#23

Yeah touching mage is not the right option for the devs, considering it would take lots of time and testing just to piss off a majority of the endgame community

1 Like
#24

Yeah, but because of the nature of things, other classes tend to give other players a bit more time to get at least one hit in.

The only real bad thing about not considering lower level/newer players with regards to balancing is just that it leads to bad habits, which affects players as they get into higher level play.

#25

That’s why suggesting a balance to how dungeon queue should work is the better alternative. It’ll be much better than tweaking numbers and screwing anything else up.

The classes are balanced, they’re not gonna change them. Your issue from what I’ve read on multiple posts is specifically lower content and aside from the exp issue, it’s extremely difficult for a lower tank to hold aggro against a +6 dps of any kind, not just mage.

Pick your battles. A balance has been done, all dps is balanced, end of story. However, I do agree there could be more work done to ensure queues are better all around for all parties. Changing an entire class is not the solution

3 Likes
#26

So out of curiosity do you know around the damage that you are able to achieve on the classes you play? I am more than happy to go over things I’ve experienced over my year and a half of playing, and most of that time helping run a top guild, in the game. Especially about averages when it comes to beginner - top players for each class as it widely differs between people.

I do understand that the game is not great about explaining mechanics about agro and dps to people which is why we also made guides to help people understand what to do on each class to help people play to their full potential.

3 Likes
#27

Also I am not talking balancing off of the very top % of players. Anyone ever play Overwatch? They have killed the game because of balancing based off the pro league players. The 90% of the player base suffer because the 10% ( actually less) complain or say something needs changed but in reality most will never feel the impact.

Also as others have made clear at top tier mages actually have to do more than just spam oval. So if that is the case why shouldn’t the oval spam be changed? The fact someone can spam oval for 30 levels and be the “top dog” by slot is just ridiculous. Also again to people saying it’s the hardest to learn. It really isnt, its drawing an oval and took 20 minutes to master it. I will say if I have to draw the runes correctly it is actually hard ( again the reason for shortcuts is its easy).

1 Like
#28

Slot was supposed to be ALOT lol

#29

I will give you twenty minutes to go hit 70k by doing nothing but drawing ovals. Let me know how that turns out for you. I’m at nearly 4000 hours in game and don’t do that.

1 Like
#30

What addon is best for dps parsing? I haven’t done raw #s yet but just clear observations. I dont understand how you of all people could say they arent OP. From a standard player not top tier raid standpoint ( where more than oval spam is required). I mean you see it every single dungeon. You cast 20 fireballs and literally any mob is dead before it even gets halfway to you. No other dps can do that let alone with such ease. I get at the top tier endgame raids etc you need to switch it but again my question if oval spams arent used for top tier dps why would you be against a change? I would also love to see a % of dps broken down by class because I would be willing to bet mage is a huge % of the others ( just based off what we group with and see running around ) ( granted its hard to account for with this style game where you can change classes like ffxi)

#31

Also your own #s even said 25% dps increase over the next closest. That is alot, 5-10% difference is one thing but 1/4 more there is a clear issue.

#32

So, there was a dps patch implemented before you even started playing to help level the playing field on the classes. Before that patch the top players based on class ended up ranking Runemage, Shaman, Ranger, Scoundrel. Because this was a big issue because of just how difficult it was to do content if you were not a mage they changed it so that now the top players based on damage tends to be Runemage, Ranger, Scoundrel, Shaman. This is a lot more balanced because of the time investment needed to be good at each class.
Runemage takes a lot of practice when it comes to consistancy and stamina to play so it makes sense that it would be the top performer (think Tracer from overwatch).
Ranger takes a lot of stamina and practice when it comes to hitting specific spots on an enemy and managing your range which make sense that it should be second highest performance wise (think Widowmaker from overwatch)
Scoundrel takes significantly less stamina to play effectively as you are aiming and doing a curve shot on enemies and then managing your cards, while you do have to manage range a little bit it isn’t as penalizing as ranger. (Think of Hanzo from overwatch)
Shaman does not take any stamina to play and as such also is very simple to play and hit higher numbers on as long as you hit your target (think Mei from overwatch)
Because of all this I would argue that end game the order of top dps would be this, however when it comes to the average skilled player it is flipped just like in overwatch as you tried to point out. Because of this average players order of highest to lowest dps normally is Shaman, Scoundrel, Ranger, and then Runemage. Just like overwatch it is easier to play mei or hanzo as an average player than widdow or tracer as they need certain skill and knowledge as well as practice to be good at.

I hope this helps explain most of what I see when I play in terms you should understand if you play overwatch (just guessing since you brought up that example).

#33

That is just the absolute highest anyone has hit on the classes that is not even anywhere close to average numbers those players hit that is just top performance for top players and them being excited for hitting new highs.

3 Likes
#34

Yes I get that but from what I have seen Mages at lower levels are the dominant class. Which is where the problem of oval spams come into play. I’ll see if I can record some videos later ( haven’t setup any recording stuff yet). If you go into a dungeon and pull X mob a mage spamming oval will almost always pull hate ( due to getting hit with 20 fireballs) and will melt the mob long before anyone else does significant damage. Top tier I can understand because you have to do alot of different spells / rotations. The problem is though 99% of players not in raids etc can do 1 simple oval and out dps anyone else. There needs to be some sort of limitation like every other class has. Every other game ever made each class has a limiting factor. OW for instance ( since we are talking about it) you either have ammo not infinite bullets typically, your abilities have cooldowns, you have stamina or some sort of factor to keep you from just going ham with nothing to stop you. Every class in orbus has some sort of limiting factor ( far as I can tell) except mage. The limiting factor is on the players speed. By having these ridiculous shortcuts it makes it easy to bypass the 1 factor they had ( having to draw shapes accurately)

#35

so the 120k mark for dps above that has only been hit about 5 or 6 times mage is a very hard class to just be so consistent with numbers and yes theoretically it can be the highest by a long shot just the chances of that happening so oftenly are just not there as much as the other dps classes and trust me I would know because I am currently still the holder of the top dps and I hit that once and was never able to get close to it again the closest I’ve gotten to that after hitting the record (129.9k) is like 122k so its not an often occurence

4 Likes
#36

Again top tier dps is different you arent spamming oval. The 99% of other content / times though the fireball spam is an issue. I mean all you hear walking through town is " how do I spam fireballs" or “here draw this oval” it’s all anyone wants to do and for good reason it works extremely well ( too well) in most situations.

#37

I am literally the creator of the oval method and I don’t do any sort of rotation

2 Likes
#38

The reason you see more mages at lower levels is because its a fun mechanic that isn’t like anything else out there which is what draws people to it in the first place. I would be hard pressed to find someone that isn’t already a mid to end game player or on an alt to be doing that in dungeon que without a whole lot of practice under their belt.

1 Like
#39

Again, other classes are doing comparable damage, it just isn’t visually impressive. I’m telling you this because I’ve run the numbers, not just on top tier players, but with dozens if not hundreds of regular players. I do dungeon queues on my alt several times a day and I parse the numbers so I have an idea of where each class is. I’m telling you from experience and from crunching the numbers, the classes are balanced. It takes a lot of time and dedication to get the Fireball spam, but even at low levels it’s not significantly better than ranger or Scoundrel.

4 Likes
#40

Can I see the #s? Because watching health bars as a mob gets hit with 10 fireballs at once vs any other dps there is a clear advantage. I dont have the #s but you can literally see it. So many times you join a dungeon hear “sweet a mage” or “sweet 2 mages” because it speeds it up. I’m just speaking from watching closely how a mage takes HP down vs me on my scoundrel or shaman etc. Also at the VERY least the shortcuts should be considered a bug. I mean if you are supposed to draw B and you draw O clearly that is not the same thing.