Paladin is Too Strong

[Infiniterune]

The problem:
The class is pushing warrior out of the meta. It has nearly infinite mobility, nearly infinite stunlock, puts out good damage, can heal to full at the push of a button, just eats certain boss mechanics like slams and tank busters with it’s damage reduction and shield. The only thing that keeps it in check is that its worse at pulling agro.

Honestly I would be okay with that if the class actually felt like it really struggled with agro generation but it doesn’t. I think the class is fun and having a strong tank carry in the game smooths out a lot of potential frustration caused by needing to be reliant on so many other players performing well in dungeons and raids but it shouldn’t get to be this monster capable of carrying the entire party and get to hold against mages going sicko mode. I just think that paladins should have to play seriously in serious content

The last time the devs balanced the tanks they actually buffed paladin and gave hammer throw an invisible 2x agro multiplier. This means that a thrown hammer actually generates more agro than a normal hit which I think is absurd. stun locking prevents the enemy from hitting you and giving you pips so they end up being pretty much even but these two things should not be remotely comparable in agro generation

The Solution:
remove the 2x agro multiplier on hammer throw to actually punish paladins for excessively stunlocking when they don’t have to
make paladin pull like 10% less agro in general

this might make it so that on some bosses that dont force your dps to slow down or stop attacking, you might not be able to grind out an agro lead and they might not be able to hit the gas without pulling agro. Thats what warrior is for. Its like the only thing warrior has going for it. paladin can still tank these bosses it just that your dps are going to be a little grumpy about how they have to slow down a little.

[NotScott]

Counter offer. Make warrior better:

• warrior self heal becomes stronger. (Needed to survive mistkeeper normal way without a really good healer like pally)
• warrior big shield more damage.
• sword raise talent can be done more often and has a wayyy bigger range. (32 meters plz)

This will make warrior the better choice to make the total dps of the group better. But still makes pally supperior for running to new locations, keeping group of mobs and stunlock capabilites.

[Ewok]

+1 buffs over nerfs
Warrior needs help
pally can stay as is

[Infiniterune]

I think warrior needs buffing as well. These are not mutually exclusive things and I have made posts in the past about how I would make warrior better.

I just really also do feel that paly is too strong. its a class that can basically hard solo carry high level content. I think that players should be reliant on the players they play with when they do group content no matter how competent they are at individually performing on their class.

I feel like my suggested nerfs are pretty fair. I don’t think that most people would think that perma stunlocking should be a viable way to maintain agro. You can still stun lock you just need to be a little more mindful of how it impacts your agro lead or maybe, worst case scenario, you might have to talk to your dps during a fight to let them know that they might need to slow down a bit. 10% less agro is also pretty marginal in my opinion. I just don’t see paladins struggling with the only weakness the class is supposed to have and that leads me to believe it probably needs a little dialing back.
I’m not suggesting that anything be done to affect anything about the class beyond a very minor nerf for how it generates agro so it should perform exactly the same as long as its not trying to cheese boss fights and expecting to easily hold against 90k+ mages.

[NotScott]

@Infiniterune

I think that players should be reliant on the players they play with when they do group content no matter how competent they are at individually performing on their class.

I disagree on this part. I like the possibility to be good enough that you can carry other players. (or more precise, not be dependent on every other player )

Also the “easy” way to kill boss 4 hardmode right now is mastering the stunlock on pally. And its not an simple ‘cheat’ either. Its one of the hardest thing you can do as a pally in group content. And if you do it too much you will actually loose aggro to the best players . The effect you get is that you can actually keep the boss on the same spot, making the boss dps alot less frustrated. Which is the goal of a game. Making the game fun for people.

[OndeTv]

Without having any real merit in this conversation, here is my 2 coppers:

• we have 2 tanks (warrior and paladin), 2 “physical” dps (ranger and scoundrel), 2 magical dps (mage and shaman) and finally 2 supports (musketeer and bard)

• each set of roles ought to fit that role set perfectly. They may not be equal at everything (one may excell in parts the other lack in), but overall they should be somewhat balanced and enough for whichever setting where the role is required (+/- player skill and gear, not class balance)

In other words, if paladin continues to exceed in every every aspect of the tank role versus the warrior except for agro generation, then it is time to look at warrior buffs (or paladin nerfs - but noone likes a nerf!).

Edit:
This isn’t a my class vs your class post as would be the case in most other mmorpgs, as everyone has equal access to every single class on every character. So on the contrary it is about investing time in a specific class and (if everything is reasonably balanced) not feel that you made a poor choice versus the mirror of that specific role. The whole “paladin-is-so-much-stronger-than-warrior” trend has been going on for a long time now.

[Gutsash]

100% agree, buff warrior and don’t nerf paladin.

[Infiniterune]

That’s honestly pretty fair. The strength that a class is allowed to be is a totally subjective opinion and achieving perfect game balance is sometimes less important than letting players play how they want.

It definitely seems like I’m in the minority here with wanting to nerf paladin. I think I apparently draw the line for power a lot farther back than your average player but if the community as a whole disagrees with me than it seems like I have been outvoted here.

[Richleth]

100% make warrior better for increasing dps, if warrior gives better damage buff it will fall into that bard niche where is is harder to use and easier to get punished but rewards the dps with more damage.

• Take that stun ability that gives extra damage and make the buff it gives last like 4 seconds instead of half a second or whatever it is now

While I do think that the hammer throw change should be reverted (it was unnecessary even at the time) I am fine with it as long as warrior becomes the better choice for the group’s dps along with the other changes you mentioned. Warrior falling neatly in a similar position bard has now would likely solve the issue of pally being a direct upgrade to warrior in everything but agro (which agro does not matter if you are good).