Rangers are underpowered

Yes, but casting isn’t that difficult once you have a feel what the algo is looking for. And it’s mostly the same three spells (8, P, and B or D, of which mainly the 8 is hard to practice) over and over so then it’s just practicing shortcuts to make them even faster. Then there’s only a small rhythm component and only to proc tilesets(edit: and maintain affliction). Aiming is simple for mage and it can even be re-aimed while traveling in case the boss got dragged somewhere. There are no standing location restrictions for mage except what is useful for boss mechanics.

Ranger requires a tight rhythm component just to play the class at base level. Optimal tilesets to proc rangers are ridiculously complex and require a very long memorization of perfect timing for normal shot/piercing/poison rotation. They have to aim their shots (and can’t adjust while in flight) and have to aim even harder for weak spots for maximum dps, the class has standing/distance restrictions built into it that mage doesn’t have. A lot of this is subjective but the class is way more skill-intensive than people give it credit for.

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Mage starts off hard and gets harder as you keep practicing. Many people can tell you that getting from 1 spell per second to 2 spells per second is hard. Those that are even able to do 3 spells per second will tell you that reaching and that speed takes lots of practice and dedication (a lot more than getting from 1 spell per second to 2 spells per second). Getting faster as a runemage never gets any easier.

Many people will tell you that learning the D method is much harder than learning 8-ball. Since 8-ball is also very difficult to learn you can imagine how difficult the D method is.
Also, don’t forget pushback which is a necessary spell for every mage to learn.

Once again, many people will tell you that learning shortcuts is harder than learning the non-shortcut version, a perfect example of this being the D method.

Casting multiple different spells at a fast pace is by no means an easy thing to do. The only thing that makes it easy is the constant practice that mages put in.

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Saying what number the rangers max out while I am almost certain you don’t have any math to know this is not making this thread better or trustwortht… You are also missing the interaction with most of the endgame rangers in the game… Mostly Europe. Example average dps of one of the best active rangers on Mutated rat is around 56k. But that is one of the best easy dps bosses of-course and it varies to way lower depending on the boss.

As for the claim of Sift that rangers are better than scoundrel currently with the made up numbers, that is also not true. End game scoundrel is still better/equal ranger dps. This is also because ranger default dps is is lower then other classes and secondly it does not have 100% tileset uptime just like scoundrel. Its tilesets is a bit better than scoundrel though but still crap uptime in comparison to mage/shaman.

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Idk… I don’t play much ranger and I don’t know much about rangers. But I haven’t yet partied up with any rangers that can out DPS or even get close to what mages and shamans can do. Note, I’ve only compared the DPS’ within the party at the time with a damage tracker.

Maybe I just haven’t partied up with any good rangers yet.

Yea exactly. Idk what to make outta threads where people put random thoughts and feelings in without looking at logs, frankly. The armory makes it easy to monitor and compare dps and these are the facts we talk about, not taken outta the blue or fantasy-crafted numbers and what not. And here is a ranking of classes, which seems very obvious, to me:

  • Scoundrels show the lowest dps in groups, normally, no matter which skill level and other class is compared to them. They are in general lower than any ranger (except 1 scoundrel in the game who min-maxed the class). The reason for that I stated a billion time on forums: In the early days of Reborn rangers got buffed on request of a few, while Scoundrels were nerved. The nerf was rerolled shortly after, but the ranger-buff remained. Since then Scoundrels - again, in general - are the weakest, in any log. And we log all, I checked hundreds of those, raids, dungeons etc. New Rangers outdps new Scoundrels, experienced ones normally too. Except you are brilliant at this class and so far I know only 1 player who’s achieved that with LOTS of tricks and thoughts and min-maxing - and he’s also barely reaching the top rangers.

  • Rangers are in the middle field, new rangers outdps new mages easily (because these can’t cast yet), but they are certainly below good mages, as stated above, capped at around 50k, at some bosses perhaps bit higher. Excellent rangers will always be below excellent mages.

  • Then comes the Shamans who are normally above rangers and have a higher cap than them. However they are still capped and won’t excel the best mages, ever. And, there is quite a couple of fights not really fit for them! If you can’t have close distance or need to move much, things look very different for a shaman. Every shaman should have a ranged dps class since it’s required for some group-setups / bossfights.

  • Then comes the Mages, uncapped, still on top of everyone IF they invest reaaaaallly much time to practice and optimize casting.

This little “ranking” is easily pulled off logs looked at over a very long time and hard to dispute, imo, even if in “theory” things could be different, in practice they are not.

Here a few logs from raids of this year to back that up, Rangers are marked red, Scoundrel crew is marked green; on top is the blue bar of the mage(s) or shaman. The boss logged is clockworks where the dps have nothing to do but stand at their spot, so it’s fairly good to compare, however same tendency shows in ALL logs, at all the bosses.
And I’m aware this is not dps but (overall) damage done, but it certainly reflect the dps-tendency also.

Hardmode:


In this graph you neatly see excellent rangers who are all maxed on gear, playing close to cap normally (green, orange, red; 40-50k) - compared with an excellent mage (blue) pulling off more than double that. Regardless if main-class or not, all Scoundrels are lowest.

Hardmode 2 (not sure what the white one played, so unmarked):

Hardmode 3 (again not sure on white one, poss. mage but not main-class-mage; top blue is mage, but also not main-class):

A Normal Raid Log; especially significant since we have rangers jump in the “beam” and they do more dmg despite having to move around. While least some scoundrels just need to stand at their optimum distance and curve/shoot and they are still really low in comparison with the 3 rangers; on top here is an alt-class mage or shaman:

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It would be much easier to see from the logs of the Dev Dudes would update the combat log to show what abilities are causing the damage (as well as the many other things that have been requested for the combat log before) so we can see clearly which class is being played

A few Days ago I was doing some transmog farming with Metris and she assumed I was decent at mage because she had seen my dps logs on the armory, I’m actually terrible at mage as I never practice it and haven’t really played it since preborn, in those logs I was playing ranger but there isn’t a way to see this unless you know exactly what to look for in the log, even then it can be extremely difficult to tell some classes apart, having these changes to the combat log would make class rebalancing much easier to do as well as improving the tools available to the community

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Yea it would be neat knowing that just from logs, however, in 95% of cases I know what people play, because it’s the same people playing same and our hardmode does not allow practicing around with this and that. These above are all from our own raids, not the sunday-ones, and I don’t recall playing with you in last weeks at all, frankly, apart from the very nice mine-farming :wink: … hence the mistake, I literally got perhaps one glance at a log with you in, on sundays? Perhaps call me a documentation-nerd, but I even take notes on our own logs (like potions taken and what not), analyzing them right after runs every evening.

Also I save links all in one txt, so I can pull them up quickly (and even more) for discussions like these or if members wanna know if they improved etc.

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I would like to see a way for ranger to get more dps be that something requiring more skill or a buff on something. I main ranger and can get good dps but also play mage and easily out dps ranger. I put more practice into ranger but no matter how much more I do there is no possible way to out dps mage and if i put the same amount of effort into mage i could double my mage dps.

I want to know what the devs consider a good balance. @Mathieu_D in the next Q & A i would like to see from the devs opinion what would be the class balancing your aiming for? should all dps be aiming for the same max dps? should ‘harder’ classes get more dps? if so what makes them ‘harder’ ? how physically demanding it is? how much practice you need to put in? how smart you play the class - for example: positioning, rotation, timing, tilesets ?

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Like always these discussions boil down to the difference in direct numbers, not really taking differens in utilities and healing abilities.

Rather then having a strait dps balancing, i would have liked a raid designed around the specialties of different classes, where there specific abilities would greatly simplify the battle.

Kind of seeing the oposit where bosses and boss ads have imunity to traps and transformations, and spread damage is set as as instantly giving stacks, resulting in a strait one target dps fight.

Total damage is good and all but I believe that the thread was focusing more on DPS, which is different. If you have the total time of the fight you can divided it by the total damage (total damage/time) and get the DPS. If you have that, I would like to see what it was and see what kind of DPS the rangers were getting vs the scoundrels? This way we can get a better comparison between the two.

Ya know it was already timeconsuming to pull out and check/comment these graphs; you can really just check (hover) over the armory graphs to see dps - which certainly align to the dmg anyway, as written! I was simply pointing out a tendency, like mages top’ing everyone and scoundrels constantly lowest contributors which shows pretty clearly if you check that many logs.
[As for the suggested maths, what exactly should be “different”, the ranking is in question here - all have the same time of the fight, thus highest dmg number will yield the highest dps, the ranking stays same as if you’d look at totals].

I personally am more interested in total dmg anyways btw, because this shows on first glance who contributed what to a fight, like double, tripple etc. [taking into account special roles, moving of some while others don’t etc.; apart from Clockwork I like to check Minotaur and Sewer Rat logs to compare classes/skills, because there everyone has no other task but shoot, constantly].
If some Scoundrels are always at the bottom of total dmg you’d take rangers over them, if you have to choose.
I’d like the armory to have the overall dps written out more clearly also, however, the hype around dps is a little dull because it always depends on the fight how high that is. A naked dps number tells nothing without comparison of what others did and a close look on what fight situation it was; and if fights are too short, like less than 30secs, it’s entirely useless, showing fantastic numbers if someone had a lucky crit etc.

I don’t really know why dps is referred to so much at all, yes, good rangers do 40-50k at a dummy or in fights where they stand still and just shoot, constantly. But it is normally much lower in real fights where you have to move or pause in between, like at all bosses which have downphases, spawn ads etc. (like Clockworks; no movement, but switching targets is required; afaik all dmg on ads is included though, in the armory logs).

Looking at overall dmg contributed, on the other hand, will instantly show rankings and allow comparison of classes, so that is just fine for the issue at hand, imo.

As an illustration, hovering over the end of dps graphs for my very first log (mage light-blue on tops) yields:
Mage
69k dps

Rangers
32k dps
31k dps
27k dps
26k dps

Scoundrels
21k dps
19k dps
19k dps
17k dps

I am not convinced about those logs. Most scoundrels in question almost don’t play the game while almost all rangers in question are very veteran. And there is also the age/ability to learn gap between those players that is obvious when you know them… Except for one, but that is a valid argument if you also say except for 1 scoundrel xD These are logs for 1 type of environment. If these logs would be taken from a min max group I think it would be more equal. And from a group of only bad players I would not know who would win.

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First of all ehm that is flatout wrong [edit: cleared some details with Scott in pm… and he came up with a brilliant idea, stay tuned :wink: ), two of the rangers we raid with play ONCE a week, no more (this very raid!) and 2 scoundrels, on the other hand, practice their class in shards all the time. One of which is a main scoundrel running daily with us and having hundreds of hours in since he plays nothing else and is like 24/7 ingame, practicing curving and what not(!!) None of those is getting close to the lowest ranger who does not play the game even, and this is a steady pattern in logs, shards and raids alike… since everyone has bad days now and then and sucks at his class you need to look at more than a handful tho, certainly. In every one of these logs are more or less experienced Scoundrels/Rangers in and that is all what counts for the comparison. Even rangers with lower tier weapons are on top of Scoundrels using better ones.

And you can dispute what you want about those single examples, evaluate persons and what not - like it sadly always happens once you deliver any - again, these are mere EXAMPLES, I can deliver hundreds more but what for. What I show is a tendency showing in each and every log where you - to name the one person who min-maxed the class bending server- and class-mechanics to the max tho - are not playing that class.

I see poor performance with new scoundrels compared with new rangers, I see it with comparing fairly experienced people on these classes, the only reason that this is even disputed and belittled all the time no matter what data is delivered is that most dgaf since they don’t even run with scoundrels hence lack this data. Who’s really even fond of improving his scoundrel if most of times you can just hop on a shaman and do three times the dmg on trash and most bosses alike; or play ranger with a way better relation of time invested via outcome.

To make the class worth playing for 99% who perhaps wanna play it and be fairly good without min-maxing it to the ultimate (not to be best of all, but only to compete with other classes…), something needs to be changed. As you yourself noticed, tilesets first of all, the still-useless super next, but imo much more, like at least buffing it to ranger-level, that is the source of the problem, that one class randomly got buffed months ago while the equally low (or even lower) class was left standing in the rain, up to the current day. And the numerous threads about this fact popping up times and times again is just an indicator, but not a bad one.

PS: Also this is visible in so many ways, also from a social/community perspective. Every time someone joins the guild stating hey I play scoundrel everyone thinks omg and most people who failed this class left by now, never gettin a foot on the ground. Not saying new mages don’t have the same issue, they suck in shards, majorly, but if they stick to the class there’s at least a reward in the end, you do a sh1tton of dmg, a perspective which the scoundrel clearly lacks.

PPS: Also, when these discussions emerged first the people in top-guilds talkin the issue down had zero scoundrels, I repeat, zero, with which they did endgame-content in their guild! Scoundrels were used “for the group buff” despite their poor performance, if at all and everyone was bla-bla-ing about yeaaa there can’t be good Scoundrels yet, they need to figure the class and practice for a longer while. Now after like a a year where are all these? I am actually curious how many top-scoundrels the top-guilds have by now and how these perform, for example, in their shard 15s, compared to other classes; I fear the picture is pretty much same as I see it in our logs OR hard to tell since they wouldn’t run with scoundrels, in the first place.

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