I will read everything in the end but had no time for it today, and got curious. There might be something flawed about that num. I am curious to check myself when I have the time 
1 Like
You guys tired of me yet?
More testing today, with more attention paid to equalizing everything as much as possible. This means no potions, no tiles, no armor (with two exceptions, noted below.)
First off, Bard!
Note that Cure+Gentle tick happens every 3 seconds, so it was divided by three for the HPS. Total HPS was calculated by adding the Cure+Gentle HPS and the crescendo values divided by their cooldowns. I didn’t test anything below a +5 today. I tested with and without tiles for both +5 and +6.
Next, Musket notes. I took the values of everything on non crits and compiled it here. I started testing below level 30 because I wanted to see what the equivalent value of a +6 Bard mallet was on Musketeer. The numbers were taken without armor to get base values not modified by Projectile damage increase or other affixes. CTC denotes Charged Turret hit by Cure Wounds. Mostly I was looking at the Per Second Renew+CTC as that value is what you’re looking at for healing the Tank most the time.
If we’re looking at JUST Heals per second, we’re looking at +6 Bard being the equivalent of somewhere between a level 19-23 Musket.
If we add all the healing a Bard can do and put it in Heals Per Second, +6 Bard is somewhere between a 25-27 Musket.
+6 Bard with Tiles gets you between a level 27 and green level 30 musket.
If we add the damage mitigation of a Shield Orb to the equation, +6 Bard with tiles is BARELY better than a level 25 Musket.
It really makes me sad that I bothered spending so long trying to get these legendary +6 mallets when I’d have been better off with a green level 30 musket. I understand that Bard shouldn’t be pulling the same number as Musket due to it being more of a hybrid healing class, but it’s so underwhelming that it’s no wonder most players don’t bother with the class.
As always, if my conclusions are wrong or I missed something, please let me know.
6 Likes
Glad to see someone actually going into the numbers, which I was way too scared to do. I just eye-balled it most of the time 
2 Likes
The thing that blows my mind is @Riley_D referred to this as one of his favorite class. But it feels rather neglected. It became one of my favorite support classes due to loving the music mechanics. Myself and Human were the forefront of pushing for some rebalance for Musketeer (I was a Muskie support class super user from preborn). And I feel that class got what it needed. But I feel the bard class that was initially added with a good amount of creativity got ignored. A bit of DPS and healing tweaks would further move the bard to an appropriate place. Musketeer takes so much less skill now to pull of healing than the bard it’s upsetting.
2 Likes
I thought I remember the last thing that Riley said about Bard in the beta testing was: not happy with it, definatelly revisitting the class. Which never happened lol.
1 Like
Things like this are more reasons why all the classes need a rework. Its a disappointing waste of potential, just like the Talent trees of other classes. Some examples being listed here; Class rebalancing
I ran some numbers based on what some potential changes might look like. Blue columns are Bard, Green are Musket.
The first cluster is if Gentle Healing pulse timer was reduced to 1.5 seconds instead of every 3 seconds. Note that the total Individual healing per second on a +5 Bard with Tiles is now roughly the equivalent of a Green 30 Musket, and group healing with a +6 Bard with Tiles is roughly the equivalent of a Green 30 Musket.
Second cluster is if we made the previous change, but also changed Encore to, instead of Empowering random notes, require each Crescendo to take 9 notes instead of 12. +6 Bard WITHOUT tiles is now roughly equivalent to a fresh Green 30 Musket.
The last cluster is we made the pulse timer change, but instead of changing Encore to require 9 notes per Crescendo, we require 8 notes. A Green 30 Musket is now equivalent to somewhere between a +5 and +6 Bard.
I’m not saying this is what I recommend, or this is what I’m pushing for. I know I’ve been sitting here posting a lot of numbers without posing any potential solutions, so this is my attempt at saying “hey, here’s something that COULD be done!”
Again, I don’t want Bard to equal Musketeer on healing output. I just want Bards to know that their Shard/Raid gear isn’t worth less than a level 30 Musket.
3 Likes
I certainly hope the changes are better than this. Bard, even if its numbers arent the same as muskys, shouldnt only be equal to a level 30 musky. Thats ridiculous in my opinion if things arent improved well past that.
If you’ve got suggestions, I’m all ears and I’ll run the numbers.
From where i sit, for bard to be comparable as a healer its numbers need to be comparable to Musky. Bard may be more of a support, but there is no ‘support’ role that is can fit. Just healer, so it should be comparable. As well as that Bard’s heals are spread out, non-on demand, and not able to be directed. These are all weaknesses in most cases when compared to musky, at the very least a bard having equal healing numbers shouldnt be a problem. Said healing would be spread out over the whole party tho.
In addition to this, Bard should have a way to perform emergency burst heals or be able to redirect its healing to focus on specific targets. Whether that takes the form of a new mechanic or just more frequent cresendo uptime doesnt much matter to me.
Bard is a healer, one of two in the game, and should be able to perform that duty to the same ability as it counterpart even if it does so differently. Just like all other classes compared to their own counterparts. Warrior and Paladins can both do their jobs without one being the obviously weaker class to the point that one is almost a meme class. Why can Musky and Bard be that kind of equal.
Of course i havent played as long as you but as a concept, i feel my points are rather sound. The idea that a top teir, endgame bard, can only heal as good as a fresh lv 30 musky is just beyond ridiculous to me. At that low of numbers, id barely call bard a healer as opposed to a liability in the hardest of contents if not just dead weight.
and i main the damn class
There is a fundamental difference between the classes however that you are not taking into account. The fact that bard buffs while musket debuffs is something major when it comes to later content. The reason behind that is you can only have so many weakness stacks on an enemy but bard buffs players damage not debuffs enemies so it is very powerful. So no I very much don’t see bard needing to be comparable to muskets healing but it 100% needs to be better then where it is now. As of right now the only reason to use bard is when you have a tank that needs very little healing or doesn’t need any whatsoever so getting the healing numbers to be comparable to a base 30 musket bouncing heals is massive and I don’t think you realize by how much.
2 Likes
Hard disagreement there. As a Bard, we give a passive 5% damage boost, and can give another 20% with our ult. We can increase movement speed/instantly give full Stamina (life saver in Hard Mode raid boss 2!), have consistent tiles that proc nearly 24/7 with no effort, and do a significant amount of more DPS than a Musket. Our interrupts are second only to a Triplicity Pushback, and the amount of support we can offer when/if our instruments are fully functioning will give more than enough reason to play the class despite lower healing numbers. If we’re equivalent numbers to Musket, there’s no reason to play Musket anymore.
Regarding directing our healing towards targets, that’s what the Crescendos are for. They’ll single out the person with lowest percentage of health. The only time that’s backfired for me was when a DPS stood in the poison on Sewer Rat, and they ate my Cure Wounds crescendo. That was once in the over a year I’ve been playing Bard. The Crescendos are working wonderfully, although the time it takes to reach the target can be a downfall.
Warriors and Paladins are very different in how they play, they deal SIGNIFICANTLY different damage (200-500dps vs 20k+dps), but you have different aggro holding capabilities, different survival capabilities, etc. Much like that, Musket and Bard can very much be equal, but it does NOT require Bards to be putting out the same amount of healing. We need more healing, 100%, but if I as a Bard can equal Musketeer in terms of straight healing, I don’t see any reason to play Musket other than the Shield orb.
1 Like
I would have to disagree here. There are fundamental differences in function between the two classes that would persist even if numbers were equal. As you said, buff vs debuff. As well as bard total healing split between all party members and a lack of regular and consistent directed burst heals. As well as the ability to Battle Res. Bard and Musketeer having equal ability to heal does not need to mean their numbers are exactly the same, nor that they are implemented and effective in the same way.
You missed a sentence here; “Whether that takes the form of a new mechanic or just more frequent crescendo uptime doesn’t much matter to me.” I both agreed and acknowledged that the bard has crescendos as emergency burst heals, but stated that in its current form it isnt enough and that more uptime would be more than acceptable. Just as others before me have asked for. I also agree the travel speed is dangerously slow at times
Again, Bard and Musketeer having ‘equivalent healing’ would mean, in my presented interpretation, that the total amount of healing a Bard can put out per second should be similar to that of a Musketeer. Said healing would be spread out amongst the party as it is now. Why should the two healer classes major difference be in the amount that they can heal, rather than how they function or other specialties likes buff, debuff, AOE healing, and Battle Resurrection.
I just want to no longer feel like bring a Bard, my favorite and preferred class is a suboptimal choice in 90% of encounters. As far as I’m aware that does not occur with tank classes despite their differences and strengths. As for the drastic difference between the DPS classes, i believe that should be addressed as well, but that is not what we are talking about.
The bottom line for me is that Bard needs higher healing numbers. High enough to be comparable and not suboptimal to the point that few are actually even sure a Bard can function at the highest levels of play, and certainly more than what is capable by a fresh level 30 musketeer. This as well as the fact that Bard’s Talents, among others, need a serious looking at as many are unusable and non-options, if they even work at all.
I love the game, I love the class, and i just want to be able to enjoy and do my job as well as my peers in my role.
Total party healing for both bard and musket are split between the whole party. The total HPS column shows single target heals.
Regarding regular and consistent burst heals, that’s why I mentioned Encore being changed. It would cut down crescendo times significantly, and with Upbeat working that would drop another second of downtime. Those burst heals aren’t the main source of healing for either class though. End game musket relies heavily on shield and renew, and saves Cure for dire moments. Bard is the same way, relying on Warrior Provoke heals/Paladin DR and your heal over time to do most of the healing, and using your crescendos for when tank drops to low health.
You can certainly function and succeed as a Bard at any level of the game. Every dungeon boss has been healed at the highest level of shards with Bards as healers, and I’ve run Bard as a healer in hard mode raids (like, once or twice, but the group I run with has Bard healer as the main source of healing even when I’m not doing it). There’s always going to be a meta, and everything else will be sub optimal. Right now it’s Runemage and Musketeer. Yet we still play Ranger and Scoundrel, and have Bards healing. EVERY class is viable at every level of the game. Yes, Bard should be looked at to revamp numbers. No, I don’t think it should be equivalent to Musketeer. I know I’m not going to change your mind on that, but it doesn’t matter what either of us thinks. That decision is up to the devs and the devs alone. If you have a suggestion on how to make Bard better, definitely come up with ideas and post them. Run the numbers, or PM me if you want me to run them for you and we’ll see what happens. The best way to get changes is to run tests, post numbers, and explain why you want the change you do. I’m 100% willing to work with anybody on that.
1 Like
It seems we are on the same page then. In then end my only suggestion besides what i posted here Class rebalancing is to fix the things that are broke.
Do I smell a… reddit repost?!
This. Literally This.
A small boost in the tick healing and the removal of the ult 5min use timer I think would go a long way. Would still like to see the bard dps boosted as well by 20% or more. I’m fine with the bard healing bening less than the musk. Musk is a pure healer. But it shouldn’t be insultingly less. I find the bard to take more skill to play than the Muskie as well. you miss a few notes and you are boned on being able to heal. Muskie has a garanteed recharge rate.
5 Likes
Exactly. Bard’s healing shouldnt be equivalent or less to a Lv30 Musky. Thats just insulting. In return for less healing, bard should not be broken, and have something else going for it besides 2 broken instruments and 2 niche instruments in Stamina and Wisdom. With the state of most of the Ults, the Wis usually goes to waste.