Rune Mage Balancing ideas

[TheShawnster]

Personally I can only cast 2 fireball every 5-10 seconds. And I know people can use ways to cheat to fast cast.

Also I help lots of people learn the game and everyone I teach that comes in new hates runemage because of the skill gap between beginner and expert. Hints ehy I think it should have an option for something that makes it slightly easier to figure out the spells.

Also the symbols that are used to cast spells are never actually used properly. You need to memorize shortcuts that are not explained.

between all of that and my extremely shakey hands. It makes runemage basically unplayable.

All I have to really say is. You may Alienate some of the few hundred people that like it the old way. But you definatly risk the game getting tossed aside from frustration by thousands

[Nol_Mimi_Reyalta]

It is because people teach people how to spam cast, but not how to keep themselves from injuring themselves in doing so. It isn’t so much that I’m against spam casting. It is that I’m against teaching people how to do something that could risk injury without teaching them how to reduce the risk of injury. Richleth is probably one of the few runemage I’ve seen that actually does teach about injury prevention.

Plus, how many players learn spamming trains many people with the bad habit of ignoring their surroundings, ignoring other players, etc. Like, I’ve literally stood in a fireball stream for several seconds and the caster never bothered to complain, stop, aim elsewhere, etc. Just straight forward for several seconds until I hit everything. Many of the people I’ve played with that insist on cheating/exploiting are those same spammers that ignore everything except for spamming.

In addition to that, it is just more interesting to me if people actually learn and use the entire spellset and have a variety of spells to cast instead of just a stream of fireballs, which doesn’t even look all that impressive to me. Sure, a stream of rotations might impress me, but I’ve rarely seen that happen.

If you pay attention to most of my suggestions about runemage, it is more about getting people to learn the class than anything. Aside from alternative role stuff, the idea I have is that if we make it so that playing runemage without spam is viable, then it would push people to learn how to play the class. It would still require skill (See how Richleth does casting vs many other players. It is very different where Richleth is still hitting those perfect casts and many players just are going for number of casts. Richleth does higher numbers than many of those players). Richleth is doing accuracy, speed, memorization/planning, and to a certain extent, timing. All the four elements that I’m talking about.

If we were to have alternative builds that push down speed (speed would still be important for teleport casting) and push up the other elements, that still requires skill even if it is a different focus. This could be considered a training wheel build even where it doesn’t hit the highest numbers, but is still enough that players will see a more obvious progress until they reach the limit of that build. Then they can switch to speed for more damage potential, using what they’ve learned or stay with a viable, but weaker build.

Basically, build 1 would be high ceiling, high floor. Build 2 would be low floor, medium-high ceiling. Build 1 would still be better for the best players, but build 2 would be viable for end-game content. (So Build 1 would be able to see that 110k-130k damage cap while build 2 would be closer to 90k-100k damage cap as an example of weaker but viable). Both builds would still require a lot of practice and the only thing really different would be the focus of the practice. One build focuses on speed, one build focuses on the other elements.

[Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka]

Alright, I’m done trying. Here’s from Riley himself, the guy who created the game, weighing in on this discussion three years ago:

My opinion on Runemage's Runecasting

You seem to be confusing consistency with lowering the skill floor. That’s not really the same thing. If they draw the rune exactly the same every time (including on Z-Axis), then the spell will cast exactly the same every time. The system is already perfectly consistent. Really this whole discussion can be summed up by the discussion about the skill floor vs skill ceiling of the Runemage class. Right now the skill floor and ceiling are very high. You have to practice for several hours just to…

TLDR: Mage is supposed to be hard. It’s listed as an advanced class for a reason. It’s not going to be made easier. That’s how it’s designed.

[Richleth]

Preach Riley Preach.

Though the last paragraph stings as it feels like they did appeal to lcd (quest 1) in terms of visuals but thats just personal opinion

[Escarea]

I see people implying that ONLY the long-standing players who are already good appreciate the learning curve of Runemage, so I’m going to speak up and say no, that’s not the case.

I started this game a few months ago and yes, Runemage is hard. But I practiced while I enjoyed the game on the other classes. One of the parts I really enjoyed about the game was sitting around in town chatting with people while practicing casting. And only now after I’ve leveled my 5th class to 30 do I feel confident in using Runemage in battle and it’s SUPER rewarding.

The difficulty is not a bug, it’s a feature. It’s what makes the game fun.

[TheShawnster]

I think people are missing the point of the idea also though…
change a talent to give an option to allow regular people to do reasonable damage

Talent
Batch Casting
a single cast will now fire 5 times!
(Diminishing returns on the spell so it is limited to 1 cast per second or something reasonable.)

all i am saying is that you should give people an option.

[LanceMagna]

The game has 7 other classes. If you don’t want to put in the time to practice runemage you can do reasonable damage with low effort on shamen

[Nol_Mimi_Reyalta]

So edited my last two posts to clarify what I’m thinking with my suggestions. I definitely don’t want the runemage to be easy mode.

See, I think that runemage should have a learning curve, but in a way where you can ease into it and slowly ramp up.
Think of it like a bicycle. Training wheels, you can ride easily, but you won’t go as fast, but good for learning. Then you get better and eventually can ride without training wheels. Then you start getting better and eventually can start doing marathons and racing and stunts. Many people don’t do all three of those, they might do one.
Right now, the focus would be on racing (speed). My idea is to have a build that pushes those other options (accuracy, timing, memorization/variety) as ‘training wheels’ where it is easier to get into it. This would encourage players to practice since they would see results, even if the results are on the lower end of things. Then they would eventually start ramping up as they get more and more hours of practice until they eventually ‘master’ their focus. Once they master their focus, they could then stay with their chosen path or change paths. That practice would then carry over and make their new path easier to work on.

Skill would still be needed and there would still be a learning curve, just with an incline that people feel more like challenging. Riding a bicycle up a steep mountain can be a daunting task. Riding a bicycle up a hill is still difficult, but it is more manageable even if the peak is lower.

[Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka]

@Nol_Mimi_Reyalta

My idea is to have a build that pushes those other options (accuracy, timing, memorization/variety) as ‘training wheels’ where it is easier to get into it.

Accuracy: Perfect casts give more damage
Timing: Rotations are timing based.
Memorization/variety: You’re talking about True Affliction, the talent tree I’m currently running.

Yet again, you’re advocating for systems that already exist in the game. I suggest playing a bit more and learning more about the class because this is a common occurrence here. You keep asking for things that already exist in the game, or are completely antithetical to what the class is about.

[Nol_Mimi_Reyalta]

@Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka

Memorization/variety: You’re talking about True Affliction, the talent tree I’m currently running.

Yet again, you’re advocating for systems that already exist in the game. I suggest playing a bit more and learning more about the class because this is a common occurrence here. You keep asking for things that already exist in the game, or are completely antithetical to what the class is about.

I’m not. It is a bit different. We are talking about different things.

I’m talking about moving the focus, not about adding a focus. Taking other games as an example, it is like attack speed vs raw damage vs crit rate vs crit damage. Each one would increase your damage, but with a different focus. Attack Speed would boost your stable and give more chances to spike, raw damage would boost your stable, crit rate would increase your spike count, crit damage would increase your maximum spike. They all would boost your damage, but with different ways. Right now Speed is runemage focus, speed is the meta. I’m suggesting adding an option to make other options the focus, making them more important, not adding them into the game.

Right now accuracy is useful, but many players ignore it past a certain point.
Memorization/variety: I’m talking more about learning the entire spell set and am referring to my ritual suggestion where you’d have to memorize many spells to be effective. (A bit different from True Affliction).
Timing: Again, I’m talking about pushing the focus forward so that timing is more prominent as an option.

Right now the system is speed focused. Accuracy is only important up to a certain point. Memorization is useful to a certain extent, but not to the point where you need to memorize every spell to be good. Timing is only important as far as rotations/tilesets go. I’m talking about having another path that moves one or more of the other skills into the focus.

[Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshka]

But none of the different things you want is what the class is centered about. You’re talking about changing a class that’s been designed this way purposefully. Again, as Riley put it:

“If the game we make doesn’t sell well or fails, so be it. I’d rather make the game I believe in and have it fail than make a game that is just a watered-down copy of other games, or base design decisions on what will appeal to the lowest common denominator.”

You’re trying to dumb down mage. You’re wanting to change the way it’s played instead of either putting the time and effort in, or accepting that you should play another class. You don’t need to do crazy damage to play the game. You don’t need to play mage at all to play the game. Instead of trying to change something that works, either learn to play it or play another class.

Again, STRAIGHT FROM THE CREATOR OF THIS GAME:
“I actually think Runemage is a pretty low-impact class physically, but I get that there are going to be some issues that prevent people from playing it. That’s unfortunate, but I don’t think the solution is “make the Runemage easier”, because then I think it loses what makes it interesting to a lot of people. I think the solution is, make more cool classes that are interesting and unique on their own merits that use different mechanics.”

In other words, learn to play the class as it was built, or play another class. Mage is the way it is, it isn’t changing significantly. I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but this kind of thing gets posted every few months, and it’s always the same arguments. Mage isn’t changing.

[Nol_Mimi_Reyalta]

I’m not trying to dumb down mage and I don’t really want it dumbed down. Again, you would still need practice. You would still need a lot of practice. It wouldn’t really make runemage easier, just a different sort of difficulty. The main difference is that you would very much so notice a change in effectiveness in a fairly obvious way. That would motivate players to continue working on it instead of quitting.

• My accuracy suggestion: You would need to learn how to do perfect casts consistently and on the more perfect end of perfect casts. My suggestion was still where it would be weaker than speed. If you aren’t casting perfect casts consistently, this would actually be weaker based on what I was suggesting. If you aren’t casting on the higher end of the perfect casts already, it could also potentially lower your damage or do nothing. It would only be a boost in damage for casting on the higher end of perfect casts. How many newbies can do perfect casts reliably? This would still require skill (accuracy). It would require more accuracy in exchange for less speed. (Same reason why affliction 2 is inherently slower than fireball 2 would cause this to be slower in casting).
• Memorization suggestion (ritual): This would be a completely different playstyle where the runemage could be a support. You’d need accurate casts and at a reasonable speed since rituals are timed. If you aren’t able to cast at a fast speed, have combos memorized, and accurate with your casts, this would be the worst support class (due to the lowered damage in my suggestion and that healing would be based on damage based on the same suggestion). My idea would be that it would be more versatile than the current healing classes (even more so than bard), but that it would be a weaker healer in exchange for versatility with only high skill levels being able to make up for that weaker healing (by casting more heals in a period of time). Basically, versatile, but weak unless you have enough skill, then versatile in exchange for needing more skill. This would require memorization, accuracy, speed, judgement, and potentially timing so in a sense, this would actually be an even higher floor to actually be good. (How many players cast teleport instead of ritual or vice versa? How many players cast the wrong spell because they are using shortcuts that overlap with another spell? This would not reduce the skill required to play the class.)
• Timing suggestion: This would be the only one that might be ‘dumbing down’, but this would be much weaker of an option and would be a way to train players into focusing on getting timing down. This would be a crutch option for people who are still learning and would be more to get players motivation to practice. (This really was meant as an addon suggestion that would only apply with the other suggestions since it makes no sense by itself). With that in mind, I edited that suggestion with what I originally had in mind (originally I wanted it to push people to learn how to do rotations more). The reason why I suggested it as a level 30 talent is that it would be an alternative to triplicity. Triplicity would still be the better option, but this would be an alternative that focuses on learning timings. My idea is that it would change your timing to be more of 1-3 casts per second (1 per second for full effect, 2 per second to proc 2 per second tiles with minimal bonus to dps, 3 per second might drop damage for that second for another possible tileset timing).

Basically how much suggestions work:
Accuracy: An option where instead of focusing on speed, you focus on getting perfect casts. In exchange for increasing the maximum perfect cast bonus, you do less damage for lower end of perfect casts. This would make it so that as you reliably cast more accurately, your damage starts to noticeably increase. This would then act as a motivator for people to continue practicing. Because of the higher accuracy requirements, this would slow down casting, so it is less likely that anyone, other than those at the top, would see higher maximum dps this way. The idea would be that this would be an option to pick until they are casting reliably and want to start working on speed. This would actually be harder to start off due to the lower damage at lower accuracy casts.
Ritual: This would be a different role. This would push players to learn more spells and cast them accurately enough that they get the effects that they want. Players would have to memorize combinations, have the judgement to use different combinations in different scenarios, cast those combinations accurately/reliably enough to be useful in combat, and fast enough to be properly useful. I think it is sufficient to say that this would require a good amount of skill to be decent.
Timing: The idea here is more to teach people to do rotations and to time things. Unless combined with the other two suggestions, this would be less useful than triplicity. Because this would force the ritual into your rotation even if you don’t do successful casts, it would give players more of a chance to really practice those runes. It would basically be a prep for players to work on tilesets until they are ready to switch to triplicity.

So aside from the timing suggestion, how would these go against the creator’s idea? They don’t make runemage easier, just different forms of difficulty. Even with the timing suggestion, you would still need to be able to be consistent. If anything, it would have a higher floor in terms of consistency/accuracy since you’d be casting less often so a failed spell would hurt more.

[Ken]

I get the point of your idea, I am just saying it is inelegant and insensate.

If you want to cast well, put in some time. If that doesn’t appeal to you, play a scoundrel.
Runemage is meant to require effort, and you get from it what you put into it.

The “options” you claim to want already exist, you just don’t like them because whether you chose rotation and precision or spam and speed there is still a learning curve… and that is the thing you are really against. The learning curve.

If you want to do damage by pressing the button play a scoundrel.

The Runemage is meant to be a class that a player develops over a much longer period of time. It may not be for you, and if it isn’t that is ok. There is no shame…

But if you want to master magic you have to put in the work.

Yes, that means hours of drawing the shapes and playing with them to find shortcuts. Yes that means sore arms after heavy play sessions. Yes that means lotsa practice. Yes that means making time to play regularly.

Yes that means starting as a player who can’t output squat…

Then, after a couple days of getting your butt handed to you by every enemy you encounter you’ll find you can cast just fast enough to kill stuff before it can kill you. You might fail 50 out of 60 casting attempts, but the 10 you succeeded with were enough to get it done… just barely. So you have to stand still and regen and try again, and again, and again 10,000 times and more.

Over the course of those many hours you’ll start to fail your casts less and less. You won’t have to pause in between enemies very often. Your fireballs will be more reliable and start to feel very comfortable. You won’t really be practicing them anymore tho because by that point you’ll be working on faster pushbacks and more reliable affliction 2s. You’ll have room to do that because the overworld enemies won’t pose much of a threat anymore…

You’ll gain some confidence and start doing group activities where you’ll constantly feel like you are underperforming. You’ll probably get carried for a while, but you’ll do what you can and over the course of a little more time your contribution to your team will increase exponentially.

Then you’ll just stop thinking about it. You’ll have mastered the runes for Fireball 2, Frost 2, Affliction 2 and Pushback. Overworld enemies that you used to struggle with will feel like fodder. You won’t even bother trying to take them on one at a time anymore, you’ll just casually cut them down in groups. You’ll be pulling your weight (and sometimes other peoples) in dungeons and having lots of fun doing it…

At that point you can call yourself a Runemage who is truly average.

That is when the real learning begins. That is the point where you can start to get a sense of your own potential. That is where you have to decide if you are comfortable being average. That is the point I am at now. It’s taken several months and a lot of playtime to get here… and it was worth the time I invested.

Other players deserve to experience that journey if it is one they wish to undertake. I would not see them cheated of this with a mechanic that allows them to start at an average skill level. I would not spare them the effort necessary to experience the deep sense of satisfaction and accomplishment that is indelibly connected to that effort.

Some people aren’t looking for that type of experience, and to those people I say put down your wands and pick up a gun. The scoundrel is a great class and you can do good damage right off the bat. The bullet curving mechanic gives you room to improve and adds depth to the class and your innate TTK is enough for you to go off on your own whenever you want.

I love the runemage as it is. I really feel like I am learning to cast spells. If an easy button was to be implemented for the class I would feel profoundly betrayed.

You can do it man. It’s only frustrating for a little while, keep at it!
Judge your progress over the course of days and weeks as opposed to minutes and hours.

Just remember that there is always gonna be more room to improve and that there will always be someone who is better at it than you.

[hiurpwr]

I’d like to add that I am a left-handed second-class Runemage, and while I could complain it puts me at a disadvantage, the reality I’ve come to find is that if you put in the time, your spells get easier/faster. I don’t know why, but I don’t care. My guess is it’s all about muscle-memory; (hence the R&M joke here…)

[max_p1]

This hits it right on. Being a runemage takes many hours of practice and adding parts that make the experience easier would make the experience much less fulfilling when you reach the end. I think that this class is right where it needs to be.