Rune Mage Balancing ideas

Rune mage is a big part of this game and any changes may upset people i get that.

the skill gap and the amount of people using shortcuts fast cast needs to be balanced, my idea is that one of the talents be remade. you can draw 1 spell and get 5-10 casts before it needs refreshed and you can draw a different one anytime to change it with a fresh amount of casts

if the bow is not allowed to do crazy damage with arrows hitting 500 per second then the rune mage should not either. diminishing returns and increased damage per hit would help with rune mage balancing.

also i would like to point out that you cannot see the 10 fireballs per second someone it shooting into your face if you have them on your block list, making PVP unbearable.

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No one, no mage, not a single person, is hitting 10 fireballs per second. Rapidity maxes out at 3(?) arrows per second, and can hit ridiculous numbers. The best mages in the game are hitting about 3 fireballs a second. As a Precision Ranger, I out DPS most mages. Shuga, as a Rapidity Ranger, can out DPS most mages.

Nothing needs to change. The DPS classes are properly balanced for PvE, and currently changing anything for PvP changes PvE as well.

If you have any data or numbers showing that the classes are unbalanced or that mages are hitting 10 a second, Iā€™d like to see it.

3 Likes

my idea is that they can give an option. for people who will just not even play the class at all because they get 1 fire ball off per 10 seconds. its an idea your welcome not to like it.

This is a awesome idea. Like the rapidity ranger there should be another talent tree we can choose
so we can do slow casting but doing damage too!

not everyone wants to spam spells and getting damaged hands
i realy hate playing mage because it hurts so much

No current runemage is going to allow that to happen.

True Affliction is an option. You wonā€™t do as much damage to single targets like bosses, but itā€™s certainly great at wiping out groups of enemies.

You realize this would make the skill gap even BIGGER, right? If I can cast 2 spells a second currently, and each cast can give me 5-10 spells, Iā€™ll be shooting spells out as quick as I can spam the A button. You think thereā€™s a gap now? Weā€™re looking at 200k+ DPS for the top mages currently :laughing:

Because most of the mages who still respond on the forums have played long enough to know why this idea should not be allowed to happen. This is a skill based game. If you donā€™t have the skill to match up to the best mages in the game, thatā€™s fine. You donā€™t have to. Heck, after nearly 4,000 hours in game I still canā€™t keep up with most end game mages. Thereā€™s nothing wrong with that. But why take away from somebody elseā€™s skill when thereā€™s no balance issue?

3 Likes

A couple things Iā€™ve noticed as I watched this go down.

  1. one the highest if not the highest parsing solo mage has been playing mage for about 3 years and has no hand problems
  2. thereā€™s not much of a gap. From what I understand, scoundrel is still a project and ranger and mage hit very close. The highest mage hit around 120k(?) and the highest ranger hit 109k. In the end, not a very large gap.
  3. this would take any mage who has spent time literally studying the class and making shortcuts to hit incredible numbers and slap them across the face. Mage is all about being able to cast a rotation in rapid succession. Only thing this would do is tick a lot of people off and make people leave like the triplicity nerf.
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  1. This is me and I have the parses to prove it, no one else has submitted a 120k dps parse for 30ish seconds without bleed on their weapon (the fellowship hall dummy dies fast at 120k dps and I can burst 120k with good consistency potted).
  2. The highest solo parse was 120k hit by me, and while I donā€™t have info on the ranger numbers that was hit in a controlled environment (fellowship hall). In dungeons though if im really trying I can sustain 110k for a 1-2 minute fight and could likely do it for 5 minute fights if I train my endurance.
  3. Mage is a skill base class in its entirety, if you want to hit really high numbers you have to put in the time to practice. Any type of skill decreasing change in the fundamental mechanics results in a lot of mages hating your guts.
3 Likes

Ok, but how do you suggest that the Ranger class be balanced so that people with good aim and timing arenā€™t doing more damage than people who canā€™t aim?

See, Iā€™ve made a lot of suggestions and my thing is that Iā€™d want a different type of skill. A lot of my suggestions wouldnā€™t really decrease mage DPS at all. In fact, as far as the suggestions Iā€™m rallying for the most go, I donā€™t think they would decrease skill, just add a different type of viable skillset.

I donā€™t really see a big issue with how runemages are now except for the issues of exp and self injury (warrior being another class with that potential issue - rangers have precision for people who donā€™t feel like spamming). The exp could be fixed in many ways, including changing how participation is calculated in dungeons/events.

Right now the meta is speed over accuracy (that isnā€™t to say that accuracy isnā€™t viable right now, it just isnā€™t ā€˜metaā€™. Often, metas arenā€™t necessarily the best way to do things, just the ā€˜easiestā€™ to do well with). I want to bring accuracy and rhythm or rituals and rhythm into that meta. Right now, as long as you are close enough to the intended design, there is a bonus, but Iā€™d like to see a talent line where you can hit an even higher bonus if you are absolutely perfect and cast at a specific pacing - this could be an alternative to the offhand talent so you wouldnā€™t be able to really spam cast it as an exchange.
Basically, speed casts would use the offhand casting and any alternatives could use the other talent.

Iā€™d also like to see a talent line that focuses more on combining runes together for specific effects (sort of like a scoundrel runemage hybrid in a sense of combining rune effects where it might lose dps in exchange for versatility (for example, maybe have ritual initiation runes and then the first rune used applies an effect to the second rune cast, but have it be on a timed bar. This could potentially be an alternative talent to triplicity even or an alternative to the first talent (so instead of the offhand direction, it could be an option to do rituals only)).

While Richleth is not known to have any hand problems (I didnā€™t have wrist issues for years in other games though so it isnā€™t necessarily something that will show up right away and it is something that differs from person to person (just like how some people need glasses and others donā€™t) and how I have stronger low light vision, but weaker color detection and a relative inability to see in bright light)), that doesnā€™t mean it wonā€™t happen to others as there are many cases of people being unable to play runemage (either at all or for sustained periods) due to wrist issues. You could potentially even say that Richleth gets those high numbers because he is resistant to wrist injuries, whether due to better control, better stretching, or some other reason.

An alternative doesnā€™t necessarily have to hit the exact same numbers as long as it is high enough that newbies can see it as viable, Iā€™d like to see a talent line for accurate or ritual casting.

The reason why I think a ritual system would be nice is that you could then really reclass runemage into a support. Have, for example, pushback add an interrupt to your casts if cast first. Decurse could reverse damage spells into healing spells, as an example (such as renew and affliction 2 being a renew and renew and affliction 1 could be a healing buff). In exchange for the flexibility, this would then reduce the damage that the runemage deals (perhaps 25% damage or 75% reduced damage) and require memorization of different combos.
There could be a bar similar to precision ranger where the more full it is, the stronger the effect as an alternative to triplicity, so a full bar and a pushback into pushback could potentially do 4 interrupts at 150% damage, as an example (since triplicity does 3 times effect). Basically, for effects, it would do 50-300% effect depending on how full the bar is when cast, but for damage, it would only be 50-150% damage (maybe 100-400% would be fine due to the slower cast rate since speed casters would be still doing 3 a second or possibly more and with triplicity in effect regularly - 400% or even 500% once a second would still be less than 3 * 3 (900%) or 3 * 2 (600%). The skill level would be lower, but so would the effect/damage)) depending on that same bar. (If it is 50-500%, spamming would reduce the damage and effect down to a minimum value (1 interrupt for knockback) while casting at a regular pace would bring it close to the values you might see with triplicity, but still be somewhat lower than the maximum potential. Some skills wouldnā€™t really benefit and depending on how it is implemented, damage skills might get a smaller bonus. Triplicity would of course be the better option for dps as you get three copies of the spell, but the alternative could be more beneficial to other playstyles.
This could also potentially be a first tier talent, bringing it more in-line with precision vs rapidity, and have it so that it doesnā€™t affect triplicityā€™s extra spells (so youā€™d get +700 instead of +1500 if it was 500% max multiplier) or have a lower effect on the extra spells (that would be harder to balance since youā€™d be reducing the number of spells cast in exchange for more damage, maybe have it do half the effect on the extra spells).

TL;DR

  • Add either an accuracy bonus talent or a ritual talent for the first talent as an alternative to offhand (this would basically be similar to the precision vs rapidity choice where offhand would be rapidity).

    • Accuracy would make it so that the closer your runes are to the book/official version, the more bonus you get - this would be even higher of a bonus than the current system, but would require even more precision. This talent line could potentially result in a more exponential line where truly perfect ā€œperfect castsā€ would get enough bonus to make up for the reduced casting (since you wouldnā€™t be able to cast multiple spells as easily) while the less perfect your spells are, the less the bonus makes up for the reduced casting. Without hitting the minimum to perfect cast, this would actually do less damage (think of it like the scoundrel showoff talent).
    • Ritual would allow the runemage to have more versatility in exchange for losing damage. (basically changing the runemage into a support/healer class). They would also need to remember combos to combine spells together for different effects similar to scoundrel cards.
  • For the level 30 talent, as an alternative to Triplicity, have a precision styled gauge where the higher the gauge, the stronger the spells. This could have effect (interrupts as an example) and damage separate or both the same. For both the same, the gauge could go from 50% effect (minimum 1) to 500% effect at full gauge determined on cast. This could also have a small effect on dot duration at full gauge (no effect if not full). Triplicity would still be stronger for speedcasters, but would be viable for non-speedcasters. (This would be a more or less direct precision vs accuracy style talent). For balance (to prevent it from being just a way to dumb down runemage), it could be a duration based effect that requires casting the level 30 ritual, but without needing the 15 successful casts (this would also help train people to do rotations). Basically an option to train rotations and timing.

Players using the alternatives would likely not get as high of damage as speedcasters, but should still be viable.

All that would be accomplished from the higher accuracy bonus is that runemages would then spam cast Bā€™s and all of a sudden the DPS classes are unbalanced again. Thereā€™s nothing wrong with the way things are atm, seeing this continuously is tiring.

If you want to avoid injuries, donā€™t be an idiot. Learn to pace yourself, itā€™s really not difficult. This is coming from a rapidity ranger btw. Iā€™ve had to wear compression gloves after playing too much and too hard for a long period of time. I didnā€™t think to change everything about my class, I thought ā€œWell, that was dumb. Best play Shaman for the next couple of days to rest and not overdo myself like that again.ā€

I could prolly count on one hand the amount of people Iā€™ve met in Orbus that will judge you for not hitting an ungodly amount of fireballs a second. You can still achieve high numbers by slowing it down a little, thatā€™s completely a choice.

Finally, your suggestions for runemage are just something else. It could maybe work as another class suggestion, but with it already being incredibly unlikely for them to ā€œrebalanceā€ (in quotation marks because the classes, as stated by everybody in the end game community, are already balanced) it would be absolutely ridiculous for them to just completely change an already developed class.

2 Likes

If you read my post though, my suggestion for higher accuracy bonus would disable spam casts (for the most part (I canā€™t really say it would completely stop spam casting, but it would make it harder to do without offhand casting)) using what appears to be a largely unused talent. Basically, Iā€™m suggesting replacing the talents that fewer players use (unless there are endgame players that use them enough to not want them gone (Static Charge and Contamination (I can see Contamination having uses, but I havenā€™t seen anyone use Static Charge (I can see it being potentially useful, but not sure how much so as Iā€™ve not seen many use it))).

Some talents are unused because the other is incredibly useful. The offhand talent is extremely commonly used because itā€™s ā€œalmost vitalā€ to have it. Same as rangers second talent, itā€™s just an obvious choice. If youā€™re trying to cast as accurately as possible, I canā€™t imagine it being particularly viable if youā€™re also aiming your spells at the same time. This would then leave a mass dps gap between that and the other spell, rendering your idea redundant when you could just cast slower for the same effect

You could still potentially keep casting, it just would make it harder since youā€™d have to aim while doing perfect casts. The bonus for it would need to be high enough that it is worth it (small enough of a dps difference) if you specifically do perfect perfect casts, but without turning runemage into a melee class. It would be harder to balance, obviously.

Richleth literally uses the B method, gets perfect casts, does not use Lend a Hand yet pulls the highest numbers of any mage in the game. Scott doesnā€™t use Lend a Hand either and pulls ridiculous numbers. Does there need to be some changes to talents? Absolutely. What youā€™re proposing, though, would cause a large portion of the game to quit and completely undo what Mage was supposed to be about.

All of my proposals or just about a talent that focuses on making accuracy more important? Mage is supposed to be about skill, right? Iā€™m proposing just alternative types of skill focus in a way where newer players could consider it viable, but where it would change only a little bit for existing players, but would push the focus away from spam casts. My idea would be that the alternatives would be viable, but wouldnā€™t necessarily be as high.

So even Richleth says static is useless in his videos. What then would be wrong with replacing that?

Swapping it for an accuracy based booster where it decreases damage for less accurate casts, but more damage for more accurate casts shouldnā€™t be that bad (even if the damage would be slightly lower than speed casts). Swapping it for a ritual style support option would provide a different playstyle for those who choose it.

Accuracy is still a skill. Rituals where you would need to be able to combine spells and cast reliably would still be a skill. Speed is a skill as well, obviously. Even timing is a skill.

If angering speedcasters is such an issue, what would be wrong with having it do maybe a little less than speedcasting and have it around shaman or scoundrel dps? It would be viable and speedcasting would still get more damage potential.

Based on Richlethā€™s video, True Affliction path does less damage, so what would be wrong with losing Contamination for a timing based skill that would be weaker than Triplicity, but useful for some?

None of my current suggestions would be stronger than speedcasting. I specifically set the suggestions up that way because you guys said it would anger the speedcasters if there was another option that did equivalent damage.

When they talk about taking away your hours of dedicated shortcut practiceā€¦

1 Like

I really like the idea of a 5-10 casts spell for Runemages if itā€™s set to autofire one every X seconds (whatever makes reasonable sense for balance).

Iā€™m coming at this from the entry side, using a Quest 2. Iā€™ve leveled my Runemage to 30 and run several shard dungeons with it. I get that itā€™s a skill-based class, but the current DPS at entry level is abysmal, and it may have to do in part with hardware - be it the headset, or the wifi, or internet speed, or maybe just bad tracking.

I find playing Runemage that often when making the rune to cast a spell, the whole game will stutter, suddenly freezing for a fraction of a second and then causing the rune in the interim to jerk sharply and ruin it. If I try to cast with any rapidity, itā€™s like the hardware canā€™t handle the tracking and just loses it. Maybe this is even due in part to my location being in the UK (distance from the server). I donā€™t know what causes these issues, but I donā€™t have this stutter problem when I play other classes like Musketeer or Scoundrel. The problem was even worse on my old Rift. Something about Runemage just had bad tracking.

So, Iā€™ve had to abandon Runemage, even though I liked the class and style. An auto fire balanced with time for completing a rune successfully would massively solve the playability issues for the class for me. I canā€™t be alone in having these stutter/tracking issues with Runemage, and I wonder how many others at the entry level have abandoned the class for the same reasons. Regardless of stutter, the entry level damage is just horrendous compared to the entry level damage I can do with my Scoundrel.

Being able to have an autofire balanced for time for successful completion of a rune would massively help entry players without ruining the balance for skilled veterans.

Why are you so opposed to spam casting? Iā€™ve seen several posts by you about different ideas to deter spam casting and Iā€™m curious.