Are characters from before reborn broken?

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#21

Okay so what I’m gathering from this discussion is that generally speaking, the tanks are so powerful right now that the healer is not needed to heal the tank specifically on anything outside of the highest-level shards. And since many of the fights don’t including guaranteed damage that’s going to hit the whole group if you do the mechanics right, the healers feel a little useless.

That’s definitely not the intent of the design of the game. Is this being caused by bosses still just being too kitable to where the tanks just aren’t taking much damage at all? Or is this being caused by the tank’s regeneration (e.g. the Warrior’s shield recharging or the Paladin’s self-healing) just being so high that the don’t need external healing?

These are all really good ways that a healer is needed and many of these type of mechanics will be coming back for the Raid. However, at the same time I feel like that’s “advanced healer mode”, and even just doing a tank and spank fight should require a healer…

#22

It’s also probably useful in this discussion to distinguish between the highest-level group play (e.g. “we’re so good we don’t need a healer because we never make a mistake on the mechanics”) and more “normal” group play, where I assume healers are still useful in that if you don’t dodge a projectile perfectly or stand in a danger pool on accident they can keep you alive and in the fight.

I assume we are all talking about the high-level play in this discussion.

#23

(yes we mostly talking about the high-lvl play)
Before this is going to get a fix in the wrong direction, the skill ceiling of efficient self healing and damage reduction of tanks can differ a lot. So making the base damage of the bosses stronger to fix this would not be a good plan to make a healer needed. Also remember that when we are getting better gear again we will be able to go healerless again. Which might also be a problem.

So if you want a tank and spank fight to really require a healer I would only see it happen one of the follow two ways:

  • There is a sort of healer tank buster must in those bosses mechanics. Maybe less time required because you don’t want to push the healer skill to the roof on a T1 shard already.
  • Healers provide so much damage boost that it would be better then having an extra dps. (of-course having all kinds of mechanics in that you won’t go 2 healers now because of that XD)
#24

In most typical MMO scenarios a 5-person fight either requires a lot of group healing or a lot of tank healing. What I’m hearing is that we are sorely lacking on tank healing fights. I’m just trying to figure out if that’s because there are still mechanics in the game that are allowing tanks to avoid receiving the majority of the damage we are trying to deal to them (e.g. kiting) or if it’s because the amount of regeneration is just too high compared to the incoming damage on those fights.

If you’re saying it’s a gearing issue (e.g. we used to need healers but now we don’t because we’re all in +3 gear) then that’s fine that’s a “regeneration” issue. But I think I made pretty clear in previous posts that we were trying to get away from “tank kiting” being a necessary strategy in the game, and if that’s still the meta I’d like to work on changing that long-term.

#25

I think that part of it is that most of the input is coming from more experienced players. We play with people who know what and how to dodge. It’s a bit boring to be a musky in that situation. You dont want to break the game for newer players though.

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#26

Right I agree completely, this is really more than anything for planning purposes into Hard Mode Raid tuning.

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#27

Our group is not really kiting that much ATM no. Even though I did that ALOT on a T1 airship with being underleveled tank xD So it is definately possible and higher boss damage would only increase kiting on that dungeon. But with efficient provoking and shield managing (and not making mistakes) I can and a few other tanks can keep their health up on all bosses. But I am sure if I won’t be able to any more, then I am afraid less experienced teams will not have enough of 1 healer. That is why I wanted to lean more to an alternative healer required method then just more damage.

Maybe (don’t hate me ppl xD) lower the tank self heal potential and up the healer heal power on a tank. :man_shrugging:

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#28

What about giving the musky more utility? Having gravity orb useful has been fun. Maybe like a blind orb that would give the boss a chance to miss the next hit or an extra slot so that we could carry our heals and poison?

2 Likes
#29

Okay, good information, thanks.

I’d love to hear from as many of the higher-level groups as possible on this so I can get a general sense of where folks are at in terms of tanking/healing on fights.

My goal here isn’t to punish good tanking or something, but I do think that a high-level shard should require good tanking and good healing, not just one or the other, and that’s going to be even more true in Raids.

#30

I play muskie and have done some low level shards with low-to-mid level players. Half the time, it feels like healer is unnecessary (I don’t think I ever use lifewell, for example, unless my group fails to dodge a mechanic) beyond just the empowered (but not 30 talent empowered) turret with renew + cure on it.

Occasionally someone will mess up and the heals are helpful, but that also strongly depends on what boss it is. E.g.:

  • Boss 1 Airship - totally worth a healer just to keep everyone alive when people miss their dodge or hit the invisible edge of a pool
  • Boss 2 Airship - totally worthless for healer because the main effects like line attack instakill even on low level shards. No room for error means no need for healer
  • Boss 1 Crypt - worthless for healer because the main effects like beam and rocks instakill even on low level shards
  • Boss 2 Crypt - useful to have healer because of some situations with the adds and the occasional person who gets hit by bolts. Not needed for higher skill groups
  • Boss 1 Sewer - useless to have healer because if poison drops you’re all basically dead no matter what (literally cannot heal fast enough) and a good tank can heal through the boss
  • Boss 2 Sewer - good to have a healer, but not the most necessary since it’s all about not messing up. Some room for error on low shards and allows healer to keep people alive
  • Boss 1 Broken Halls - almost useless to have healer. Dps should not take any damage unless they mess up and the tank can avoid taking most damage unless the boss enrages, at which point the tank will go down fast
  • Boss 2 Broken Halls - useful to have healer if only because the green balls tend to be a little hard to dodge.

Edit: having the secondary mechanics of the musketeer class be more effective (poison, frost, weakness) may make up for these issues. Problem right now is that there’s little point in the muskie since they basically do nothing in most boss fights and are low dps.

3 Likes
#31

You better not equip this and mess up my boss 4 hit rotation!

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#32

Yeah that’s something else that I have been thinking about. With the scaling a lot of mechanics that have some room for error on non-shard/low level shards become instakill. That’s kind of a good thing in a way because I think if you are doing the highest-level content you should have to have those mechanics really down pat. On the other hand that does diminish the worth of a healer since like you said, either you did it or you didn’t, there’s no in-between.

I guess what I’m saying though is, in none of those fights you listed do I see “need a healer to keep the tank alive in general”, and some of those fights are definitely intended to be tank and spank fights, where a healer should be needed just to help with the incoming damage on the tank, especially on high-level shards with that crazy high scaling.

So that says to me we have an issue where we have made tanks far too durable. It wasn’t really the intent that you could just take all the damage from all the bosses in the game and just self-heal/absorb through it.

#33

Specifically the warrior. Paladin tank is super squishy by comparison and often needs a top-up.

Edit: in all of these, I have kept my turret going and empowered. So take that lack of heal as you will, since there’s at least some healing involved.

#34

Oh I see. So there is a lot of healing going to the tank. It’s just not active healing in the form of orbs and whatnot.

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#35

Not talking about high level shards here. I’m talking instant death on shard 1. Which is absurd to me, and offers no real room for people to get used to mechanics at a challenging level. E.g.:

  • Scaled Crypt, Boss 1, I frequently had people saying shit like, “oh, I don’t need to dodge this because it doesn’t kill me”.
  • Shard 1 Crypt Boss 1, instant death if fail to dodge.

Huge gap there, and probably something that should be pushed to later shard levels

#36

Agreed most feedback seems to be coming from a heavily Warrior focused side with high skill.

In terms of Dps healing on projectiles perhaps making it so that you take 75% dmg instantly and the remaining 25% is a ‘bleed’ maybe could help? a musky can then have a window to react and save someone. Then in later shards that 75% dmg is so high it just insta kills anyway but won’t matter as it should be a mechanic you can deal with at high levels.

5 Likes
#37

More call for active healing in the trash fights than boss fights now. Maybe trash is too powerful and boss mechanics are messed up? Dunno

#38

This is a fantastic idea!

#39

I think there are two things here that need to be addressed. One is that the shard scaling of “group mechanics” (e.g. incoming projectiles, danger pools, etc.) should be changed so that the progression is more gradual and gives more room for a good healer to make a difference in helping out a group. The bleed idea isn’t a bad one since that would address the issue in a way that makes specifically healing viable.

The other is the fact that boss fights don’t seem to require much healing from tanks. For Warrior tanks being so much stronger, is it the Provoke healing doing most of the work there? Because I could see us adding maybe some mechanics where the damage ignores Paladin absorption and Warrior shield (so basically new stuff specifically for healers to address), but if Provoke is the thing throwing things out of whack that isn’t really going to help since they will just regen-heal through that anyway as well.

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#40

This might be true for that group but there is no healer at all for some groups. Just making sure this is not going to be ooh every group actually uses passive healing at-least miscommunication :grimacing:

1 Like