At the same time that that idea sounds cool, you just suggested tilesets: the class. Play a combo and get something out of it already exists in the game, which the doubling up of that I feel would be very convoluted… I don’t think the class should change that way, however i do think that the notes should be more challenging the more used to it you get, so a low level would have less work less reward, while a higher level works the opposite. More work more reward.
Maybe there is like a set of songs available that you have to memorize the notes for, and if you play notes in-between the falling notes you can activate one of those effects as well? So a 4th effect could be active if you are an expert-level player?
We thought of going totally free-form, but after play-testing it, it’s way harder than it sounds to just play an instrument in VR with zero guidance, so we decided against it at the time.
Good to know it was already tested. I’ll take your word on it being too hard.
Can you guys (devs) create a poll for the bard containing ideas that might be implemented? That would show what we want as a community.
Found a bug with swapping orbs that I didn’t see in this topic yet. If you put on 3 orbs, activate them, then take them off and put on different orbs, the game still acts like the old ones are active and give you the notes to play. You can’t turn those off anymore since you removed them and you can’t select new orbs to play.
so i think the idea for the memorized notes is that it isnt ‘free form’, it would be more like the warrior combo system, where you play a set of notes in a specific order and it does the ‘ability’.
for example, there might be a ‘Song of damage’ that when you play 5 notes back to back, it would use the ability and deal damage. Like in legend of zelda, you wouldnt play all notes in a song, you would play a set of representative notes for the song.
I like this idea more because of a few reasons:
it raises the skill cap, so you can become better at the class (the current implementation, the skill cap is super low)
it allows you to do what you want at any given time, instead of being beholden to time/RNG. (In a boss fight, you may need to always do damage and then follow with a buff/ heal at a specific time, and you need to time it perfectly).
3.You could put in normal abilities into the journal so everyone can play the class and then let ppl do research into finding ‘hidden’ abilities that are much longer/harder to play.
If you want to have this method be easier, you could add in something you hit to guide you for different spells, where it would give you some indication on which one to hit for each note (but something that isnt necesssary)
Actually a really good idea.
If you figure 3-5 notes to “activate”, it might be about as complicated as a single action on mage or musky.
also, when you mentioned ‘conductor’, i figured that you would implement something like windwaker, where your instrument is a conducting rod, and you would have 4-8 directions for the music. That seems simpler than having a marimba, as well as more versatile as far as movement while casting goes. (right now, you basically are a static turret)
You have to be able to play notes while moving… otherwise bard becomes the least mobile class in the game, when I believe the concept is bard running around speedily moving in to AOE damage, moving out to add extra heals to the ranged when needed, etc…
Playing the notes felt completely trivial. I was hoping for some DDR type stuff where you would hit the note in time to the actual music… as far as I could tell there was no sync at all.
What I’d like to see is, every time you hit a falling note on time sync’d with the music, it sends out a pulse of whatever effects you have equipped. Just like DDR, the closer you hit to on time, the more damage / healing you do (i.e. if you hit it 85% perfect you’d do 85% bonus damage… etc…)
When your crescendo is full, that ability goes off every time you hit any note, regardless of timing. Once you hit a crescendo, you have to start the DDR dance all over again with hitting notes matching the beat until full.
That way it gives us some decisions to make… we take a little time to ramp up, but once ramped do we keep doing basic damage, or do we start slapping crescendos and have to do the work up ramping up again. Would make it more interesting.
I think figuring out a way to raise the skill ceiling a little higher is good, hence the idea of weaving the “free form” (meaning, they are pre-determined songs of say 5-6 notes each, but there is no note falling telling you when to play them) in-between the current system. But I’m also open to other ideas on that.
What I meant earlier when I said we had tested it is that, without the falling notes it is really, really hard to a) remember all the possible songs (there would be 12), b) play them in some semblance of a correct beat/timing (unless we ignore that, but then you’re not really playing music). At that point you’re basically giving someone a real 5-note marimba and saying “play this”, which would be as difficult to do as playing an instrument in real life. If we didn’t do the falling notes at all then the skill floor on this class would be about as high as the Runemage, which is not really the design that we are going for. It’s meant to be a class that is pretty easy in a lot of ways to pick up and fun to play for folks who aren’t necessary in to directly damaging a monster via e.g. a sword or a bow.
But yeah, I think having some additional mechanic where the skill ceiling is higher is a good idea and we’ll do some experimenting with that.
Also worth pointing out that a lot of the skill ceiling currently is supposed to come from decision making about what globes to activate when – I assume right now most people are just putting the same 3 on and leaving them that way, but once we get it all balanced hopefully you would be switching between your 6 available orbs fairly frequently, in addition to playing the notes and hitting the crescendos.
Any thoughts on being able to customize your instrument/Marimba positions?
I’m planning to see what we can do on that front, yeah. Ideally you’d just be able to like grab them and put them where you want. But we’ll see what we can do.
Two related concerns, specially if songs become even more complicated:
- It takes pretty long to charge orbs, I had my group companion waiting for me to do my thingies all the time
- The concentration and focus needed is much higher than for any other class; I mostly focus on my instrument, look up now and then to see what mobs are doing. But it seems barely possible to play from muscle memory and focus on the fight, completely, including more movement than adjusting the view now and then
I can imagine only few current endgame fights, basically only those where the healer does not have to move at all (like Squiddie or Mist Keeper).
Able to play while moving is fine, but will not change much. You still have your instrument in front of you, blocking most of the view and the need to focus - partly - on the notes and the instrument. I don’t think I can ever look up and around like a warrior or mage and let my muscles do the hitting. Even if memorized I need to see which tile to hit, which takes me out of the fight for a couple moments.
Now the current Tradu and Raid fights got lots of situations where a split second of not paying attention to the mob(s) actions will kill you, for example poison pools or AoEs are not noticed fast enough typically if you look at musky orbs/charging turret or down to your ranger arrows - which is why good rangers never do that, but grab them blindly.
I simply don’t see yet how the bard is supposed to survive such situations.
I feel that the best way to raise the skill cap, would be through talents and more musical notes. At the moment we have 5 playable notes… why not add one on each side to make 7; a full chord. This would not only allow for more varied in-combat play, but also allow the class to be able to play actual songs. I can only play a small few with the current 5 notes, when with a full chord I could play way better sounding music.
I also remember you mentioning the activation of a fourth orb… this is a perfect step in the right direction as it will be harder, yet more rewarding. Also yes, once the orbs get fixed, I feel I and other will be experimenting with others…
Finally, I have been playing the bard nonstop since the beta began and I’d like to share how I see the class… I see it as a simple class with a job and a skillcap, which I find wonderful. While others may contest it is not high enough, I feel it will definitely get higher as we approach the game’s release (and it doesn’t have to raise too much, just make sure that there are punishments for being off time). However above all this, I see an infinite skillcap of the ability to play the instrument. The fact that I am able to plqy music to other players, all orbs and balance issues aside, I find wonderfully fun. The reason I say infinite skillcap is because as long as you find a song to play with those five notes, you can do that. I have been testing around with it and feel (like I stated earlier) if we had a full chord when we play this would allow for skill increases and the ability to play music, because in my eyes that’s what the bard was meant to do.
Could you please add a guide for the bard in the journal as you have for the other classes?
i guess my question is, what made you guys decide on a marimba instead of a simpler instrument? i feel like having an actual instrument causes people to have to concentrate on the intstrument instead of the game/combat itself. this is probably going to cause issues down the line.
If the instrument you chose was like the windwaker conductor’s rod, it would be much simpler for people to use, simpler to memorize spells (becauses there would only be 4 notes to choose from) and way better for keeping track of combat and allies, and even aiming spells).
Also, as far as memorization goes… people memorize all of the spells. i cant see how memorizing a few short song representations would be more difficult.
The state of the bard is still in flux and we’ve been experimenting with how it plays, so that’s why we weren’t able to do that but for the proper launch of Reborn we should definitely have instructions on how to play it.
Don’t know if anyone else has said this but I wish we had a full octave of notes instead of just 5, it would allow us to play actual songs and impress others, with 5 notes you can’t do many songs. I know this has been said but I would like to be able to move and play the songs the same as standing still.
I noticed as I was playing if you turned your head the visual changed but it also misaligned where you were supposed to hiy for the keys, so you think your hitting one and you miss the key completely.
There feels like there is no real rythm to the songs, its just random smacking to the notes, where it might be better to have different songs play for each instrument, or different instruments play entirely based upon your choices. Last problem I had with this(other than not being able to start a combat) was simply that at times, it bugged out where I could only select one instrument at a time, and it would not even charge that instrument. Overall Bard does not seem like it is ready to see play yet.
Minor Suggestion though, keep the mallets, change out for drums. A nice 4 set of war drums with maybe additional cymbals or hi hats would fit the theme better. It is an instrument that was always meant to take charge of the pace, and instill ferocity. Otherwise, who in their right mind is chargin into battle with a xylophone?
On a technicality, this is a marimba rather than a xylophone. Not sure that makes your point any different or less valid, but felt it was worth mentioning…