Level scaling is awful


#1

Not sure why this hasn’t come up yet, but I’m still not digging the level scaling. Takes the same amount of spells at 30 to kill beginner mobs.


#2

I like it, but maybe it needs a deeper - side. Rather than -4-4, make it -9-4. Seems pretty universal people would like to feel more powerful as they level up. Maybe make -5 and lower give no experience and/or no/less drops or something though.


#3

I totally agree with you Tman


#4

What I don’t get is why quests that are 5 levels below you give greatly reduced exp when everything needed to complete them is level scaled.


#5

Also if the whole point of level scaling is to have high levels quest with low levels why make it so that high levels can’t quest with low levels because u get a fraction of the xp


#6

so THAT is why the progression from 1-30 felt flat…

+1

+1


#7

I was expecting something closer to Guild Wars 2’s level scaling, where if a max level, max-geared player went into a low-level zone, you couldn’t just one-shot everything, but you could one-shot weaker enemies with a strong attack, and you could still mow down groups in a couple of hits.

Perhaps it’s just that our gear quality isn’t high enough? How is the gear scaled?


#8

It wold be nice to add a setting for it. just one to scale to the lowest levelled party member. would be tough to do though


#9

I do also feel the level scaling is an issue. I’m fine with level scaling at a basic level and understand why it was done. I am also glad that in the last beta the change was made to extend the weekly quests to all levels and not just for max level characters.

That said, I think there is a delicate balance between making it so easy to kill monsters that players outlevel a zone and will never go back but to skip over content or farm materials (e.g. Cenn’s farm) and making it so overtuned to the point that it is still difficult for a max level character to kill base-level mobs. I think at present, we lean a little far to the latter on this scale. Maybe with some tweaks (a multiplicative or exponential scale? A numerical adjustment? I dunno), we could get closer to feeling powerful while not overpowered.

Please definitely consider it! :pray:


#10

So to my understanding, level scaling is intended to keep players able to adventure together regardless of level. Players still go from zone to zone to follow the questline, but they can farm in the same zone as their friends and help each other complete quests without carrying or being carried.

The issues most people see in level scaling, myself included, are the lack of a feeling of progression and lack of a “power fantasy”. To some degree, globally applied level scaling will always have these issues. +/-4 scaling doesn’t make level 30 players powerful enough: a level 5 players is just as strong fighting enemies outside of highsteppe.

To create a scaling system that works with the initial goals of scaling but also has the least drawbacks, I’d suggest a party scaling system. In such a system, all overworld enemies have a level as they normally do. If you fight level 30 enemies as a level 5, you fight as a level 5 (and you die). If you fight level 1 enemies as a level 30, it just takes one shot to kill them. However, players can still quest and fight together regardless of level because of how parties would work. Rather than scaling a player’s level with +/- 4 of the current enemy, the level is scaled with +/- 4 of the lowest level party member. When people group up to quest/farm, they’ll all be on relatively even footing. However, the party of level 5-15 players can’t go to the level 30 areas for fun.

Such a system keeps zone based progression and the “power fantasy” alive. However, players can group regardless of level to do kill quests and farming. Scaling keeps the team on an even level and nobody gets carried. Exceptions to the system could be made for non-sharded dungeons (I’m all for scaled dungeons, so that pickup groups can quickly experience the dungeon content) and maybe for public events.

Changing the scaling system would be easy with how the quests are currently designed too. Right now, players get much less XP for turning in quests outside their level range. Players are basically supposed to do certain quests at certain levels; the current scaling doesn’t enable people to quest together in this way. The current overworld enemy levels and quest levels can be saved; the only change needs to be in how the scaling itself is applied.

I think most players, especially those who have already finished leveling, would enjoy a party member relative scaling system much more than a global scaling system. People do enjoy killing redtails after all.


#11

I think overall we’re pretty happy with the matched content system in general and what it brings to the game. I realize it’s probably one of the more controversial aspects of Reborn, but with the (hopefully) large number of new players that will be joining the game, especially with the Quest version coming out, we need a system like this in place to make sure that there’s not a 60-hour gate between brand-new players and veteran ones across all content. There’s still a lot in the game like shards, Raids, and unmatched resource areas that separates them, but we’d like the overworld to feel largely accessible to new and veteran players alike.

That doesn’t mean where it is now is perfect, though, and there are some changes already coming on Friday that I think address at least some of the concerns expressed here.

Regarding the penalty for doing lower-level quests, we basically put that in place as a one-time deal due to the awkward way that veteran players are starting at Level 20, but still have all the Level 1-20 missions available. That said, I think looking at the fact that it really only matters on Monster Hunting missions, we will be rolling that back and just giving full credit regardless of level, since as has been noted, the whole point is that the content should be somewhat challenging at any level.

In addition to that, the new Mission Credits system will be in place on Friday, which allows you to receive 5 additional leveling missions from any Mission NPC per day (and you can bank them up to 25). This serves a number of purposes, both acting as a sort of “rested XP” system for players who don’t play every day but get on every few days, as well as providing a solid and reliable source of Mission XP for leveling up alt classes (or just grinding out over-levels once you’re 30+). With that system it’s even more important to have a matched content system to keep somewhat of a challenge when going back and doing those missions again, as well as giving more incentives for veteran and new players to be experiencing the same content.

Finally, regarding the +4/-4 system, and whether we should tune that differently, that’s something we are open to feedback on…I doubt we would go as high as +9, but maybe +6/-4 or something like that would strike a balance that feels better. We can look at experimenting with that a little in the lead up to Friday and see if we want to make a change there. That said, the goal is to create a system that still challenges Level 30 players so it’s not just a complete faceroll to take on (for example) 8 monsters at a time in a lower level zone. But it also shouldn’t feel like you can barely survive a 2-pull. I do agree finding that balance is key.


#12

Oh, also, something else that I just want to note because I haven’t seen it discussed, but the whole “Plus Level” gearing system “breaks” the level scaling on purpose.

So a 30+1 weapon actually does more damage to a matched content monster than a standard 30 weapon, even if that monster is Level 10. And a 30+2 does even more. Etc.

So while just getting to Level 30 by itself doesn’t suddenly mean that you are way more powerful versus a Level 10 monster than you were at Level 20 (since in both cases you are already outside the +4 maximum advantage range), getting Level 30+1, 30+2, 30+3, etc.gear, does make you more powerful versus all those lower-level monsters.

So just something to keep in mind if you’re someone who wants that power fantasy to continue post-max level, that is baked into the system.


#13

30+2 gear would still be more powerful than 30+1 without level scaling


#14

I agree. It gives no sense of accomplishment. People will burn through the game and move on.


#15

All I got out of leveling up was not pulling aggro on everything. No sense of being any more powerful than I was at 1.
I shouldn’t need to get 30+4 gear to kill beginner mobs faster.


#16

I shouldn’t need to get 30+4 gear to kill beginner mobs faster.

Yeah I agree. There should still be some degree of scaling there beyond equipment.


#17

Exactly,
Meh we all will just feel weak…


#18

It’s been said a couple of times that leveling up makes no difference at all, and that it takes the same number of attacks to kill a Level 1 mob at Level 30 as Level 1. That’s simply not true.

You can make the argument (and I’ve already noted) that we should consider expanding the power curve from +4 to +6 or something, to make it feel like a bigger difference, but saying only gear makes a difference is not what I said and it’s not how it works at all.

At this point I’ve explained the reason for the system to exist, the areas we are still working on improving it, and the new features that affect it coming Friday. I guess we’ll just wait and get feedback on it further once those changes are available to test.


#19

TL;DR (which I would not blame you :rofl:): a lot of different situations require different methods of lvl scaling or no scaling at all :expressionless:.

Ya I agree ppl are making this a bit too much of a big deal with no logic behind it or the focus on 1 specific thing. I am a bit confused though over the goal of the lvl scaling to be honest. What was the reason for the lvl scaling? I think we should ask ourselves what should happen in a specific situation, and another situation. So I am describing what I think are key examples in this problem:
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**Example:** Lets say we have a lonely person walking around in a low lvl area. This person wants to kill all the mobs for grinding resources and just wants to feel like that "powerful" person.

Desired outcome (opinion): No lvl scaling.

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**Example:** Now this person walking around sees a lower lvl fighting a monster already. The higher lvl can help the lower lvl fight.

Desired outcome: Undecided. In some situation ppl will appreciate your help to ‘save’ them. Others will rage why you stole their mob. Scaling it to +4 or +6 or anything will have the same result though as no scaling so there is no need for the +4 or +6 to be in place for this situation. No scaling gives still the help but when someone is in trouble of dying you won’t save them in 1 second, so no sense of feeling OP anymore (what some ppl strive for). But you do protect the low lvl from getting his mob insta killed :man_shrugging:

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**Example:** you going back to kill a mob from a quest.

Desired outcome (opinion): It should be lvl scaled to either your lvl -2 or stay higher then your lvl. No monster quest should be extremely easy to do. The second you get good value from a kill (because quest) means the enemy needs to be a challenge and not an easy kill. I am very afraid that those daily repeated quests will end in ppl feeling extremely bored because they just have to kill something that is so incredible easy that their only thought would be how annoying the walk is.

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**Example:** A special mob drops an item needed for end content or cosmetic.

Desired outcome (opinion): Unscaled. Get to the lvl where you deserve it and need it to kill.

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**Example:** You are in a party of a lvl 28 and 10 player fighting a lvl 20 mob group.

Desired outcome (opinion): I think another form of scaling needs to be added here. The lvl 28 wants to feel more powerful then the others BUT also wants to feel a reason to become 29 to become more powerful. The lvl 10 wants to feel the need to lvl but does not want to feel useless. I would implement relative scaling, where each lvl behind will make you in reality 0.3 lvls behind. So that means the lvl 10 is lvl 17 in reality. This will also cap to -3 lvls because a lvl 1 will be so far behind that he will still be useless. So making the lvl 1 also 17 would make sense. And each lvl in front makes you also 0.5 lvls in front. So the lvl 28 is in reality 4 lvls higher then the mobs. You are in a party setting so you want a goal to lvl more but you also want to be part of the group and not someone with useless damage. These numbers btw should be tweaked to the point where ppl know they get more xp leveling together then alone. Mainly the higher lvl player.

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**Example:** You are in a party of a 15 and 10 player fighting a lvl 20 mob group.

Desired outcome (opinion): Still the same scaling but the base is not the lvl 20 mob but the highest player because everyone is too low for the mob. Thus the lvl 15 is untouched and the lvl 10 is scaled towards the lvl 15.

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**Example:** Public events

Desired outcome (opinion): I think the same effect applies as a party setting but then everyone in the event is in the ‘party’.

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**Example:** Without a party a 28 and 10 player fighting a lvl 20 mob group.

Desired outcome (opinion): No scaling. The lvl 28 has probably nothing to do with the lvl 10 and the lvl 10 is in an area where he should not be. The lvl 28 will get main aggro anyway and most xp. They won’t work together. This can either be the lvl 28 saving the lvl 10 or the lvl 10 trying to leach from the lvl 28. Both situation no scaling tackles these in the most fair way possible.

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**Example:** Scaled dungeons

Desired outcome (opinion): Scale everyone to equal lvl. Lost talents and lack of class training are already a handicap on itself and you want to work together and all feel fully useful.

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**Example:** Shard dungeon

Desired outcome: Unscaled

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**Example:** World boss

Desired outcome: I guess those are lvl 30 bosses anyway. So I guess only scale down with the -4 or -3 for lower lvl players. Because those events really are for the whole community to join. (the 30+n armour also helps again)

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It seems that one method is not the solution for every situation. And that is why not one method will please everyone. But just want to give my thought here and look from multiple situations instead of just 1 specific situation. I might have some things wrong and I would like to hear if so. And I might miss some situations important for other ppl which I would also like to hear from.

(Edit: I just noted I can’t find a situation where the +4/-4 is the most desired situation IMO :expressionless:)


#20

So this seems to be a lot of the crux of the concern (i.e., I want to feel powerful being Level 30). We definitely provide this still. In fact, what you are pointing out here is a situation we specifically designed for…the harvestable resource nodes in the game are guarded by unmatched enemies. If you are Level 25 and you want to go farm Queen’s Ear (as well as random loot drops from the enemies themselves), you can go kill those Level 10s guarding them and feel like a powerful person. Of course, the trade-off to that is that you are going to get Level 10 gear drops and reduced/no XP for it being an underleveled monster (just like the original game).

However what we are seeing in practice is that most people are preferring to grind on the scaled mobs near public events because they want to get loot drops and XP appropriate to their level. Or maybe there’s just not enough awareness yet in the community that there are those areas you can go grind where it’s not scaled.

So looking through your examples, many of them (shard dungeons: unscaled; dungeons: scaled (although we don’t punish you by taking away talents or abilities and we never will); resource gathering/grinding: unscaled) already work how you suggest. (Random note: we actually have the World Bosses unscaled right now because we wanted to provide the power fantasy of needing Level 30 characters to take it down…however with the way those work it’s still not hard to bring lower-level characters to the fights).

The one area we are doing the scaled overworld mobs is just the general mission mob areas (which is a lot of the world, to be fair). And as I’ve already outlined above, the reason is simple: to allow you to have a wider range of missions that you can repeat and still get on-level rewards for, and to allow the whole server to participate in things like public events without segmenting out the population the way that it occurred in the original Orbus.