Make Reborn dungeon/raid/boss content beta-testable

[Riley_D]

For each Raid tier cycle there would just be 2 difficulty levels (so Normal and Hard) rather than 3 (no Expert). There would then be another tier cycle after that with a new Raid with new fights/mechanics. I’m not sure what the gear requirement difference will be between them at this point, but if we do require higher gear on the second cycle there would likely be some kind of catchup mechanic so you don’t have to do all of the first cycle to participate in the second (but obviously you are at some advantage if you did).

I think the fights in general right now in the Raids are too long and we will be aiming for more like 5-10 minutes on most fights in the expansion. There will be a lot more mechanical difficulty for the whole raid, but also a lot less “one mistake you die” mechanics, we relied way too much on those, which I think is where a lot of the hard gear requirements came from.

I agree that more mechanic difficulty = more things to test, but I think that’s why perhaps having them externally tested but at a very low tuning just so people can explore the mechanics and make sure they are working makes some sense. At the same time I think an approach where we have like 10 “base” mechanics and then we mix and match them and put some twists on them is what I’m planning to try this time around, and then once the core of that mechanic is well-tested it should make it easier to use it in future fights with more confidence. But we’ll see how it goes once we start designing the actual fights.

[Justin]

At the same time I think an approach where we have like 10 “base” mechanics and then we mix and match them and put some twists on them is what I’m planning to try this time around, and then once the core of that mechanic is well-tested it should make it easier to use it in future fights with more confidence. But we’ll see how it goes once we start designing the actual fights.

Sounds like a solid strategy as long as new mechanics are introduced with each Fight/Raid along with the Re-skin/Twists.

[Johann]

Also just to put it out there, I would rather the fights be less of a gear check and more of an execution check with multiple mechanics/phases.

I actually like the later fights being a gear/dps check. It adds to the progression so content can’t be skipped. I think it would be dumb if a lvl 25 could do a lvl 30 raid just b/c the player knows the mechanics. I also think the hard mode raid should be locked until you beat it on normal. This makes it so people can’t skip content.

I’m not a fan of performing literally the same 3 mechanics for a 20 minute fight and would rather there be like 3 phases of different mechanics over 10-15

+1, It would be great to see more boss phases. Do the same mechanics for 20 minutes is boring.

[Landru]

I’d really like to see more dps checks in hard/expert content. The most difficult content should require the most skilled dpsers to complete.

[Quinn_M]

I mean this would also require better DPS balance though right? If a runemage can out DPS a ranger with fireball two exclusively you can’t build a realistic DPS check that doesn’t incentive groups to exclude the lower DPS class.

Or you balance it to rangers and the DPS check is largely a non issue for runemage like the hell demon is most of the time. It’s tricky for sure.

[Johann]

Agreed, but we need damage meters to actually see, but I’m pretty confident fireball 2 spam does not out dps top rangers.

[Quinn_M]

That’s fair this is just what @Colonel_Coon presented when he tested damage with @Aelar.

[Riley_D]

So…a big discussion started up about Ranger vs Mage DPS and that’s fine, but it really has nothing to do with this topic, so I moved it to a new topic. Please continue any discussion on that there.

[Chris_G1]

So we would either open it up to everyone or not at all, I don’t think it would be fair to have a specific group just for that as it would obviously be a huge advantage.

Correct. You would open it up to everyone. Just like how you plan to test reborn, you would allot a day or time, to have some focused testing on specific content. People can download that build of the game, log into it, have characters with whatever equipment sets you think is good to test it with that you want them to have, and then they would submit feedback to you. This would cover bug finding as well balance issues and mechanics that work or don’t work well with certain battle disciplines.

Obviously the downside is that it sort of ruins the surprise of doing the Raid after it comes out and the “world first kill” really just becomes who can execute their pre-planned approach the most perfectly/fastest.

At this point, its worth more to the rest of the community (who largely don’t use the forums and are not as vocal as some people are on here) to have content which isn’t riddled with bugs, and reasonable for them to be able to complete (balanced).

without giving up the world first races we have had so far.

I don’t see why the rest of the community should care about the race between two guilds when the advantages of having less bugs in content vastly outweigh temporary bragging rights.

I think the Devs just need a better/longer QA on the Boss Fights.

It takes hours upon hours of testing to find all the bugs. And even if they spent that time and found those bugs, its not guaranteed they would fix them in time before release. Worse, the playerbase would then assume the content is bug free because of the expanded dev test team, only to find that there are still plenty of issues, and you end up in the same situation we have now: Not enough testing, not enough bug fixing before content is released to everyone. And imagine how the devs feel when they are blamed for not doing enough yet again. It only makes sense for everyone to test voluntarily if they want and help make this game as good as it can be. This way there can be some pushback about releasing content people know has game-breaking bugs to the benefit of everyone else.

It’s a lot better than wishing/hoping/wanting the devs to promise they will have longer better QA times when we all know nothing is guaranteed. The value of a better tested game with ongoing feedback is worth more to the rest of the underrepresented community not on this forum, than a surprise boss fight race between the top two guilds on world firsts.

I’m not even really sure what the difference between doing beta testing of raid bosses would even change, as it is now we are the primary testers anyways. Would the difference be more attentiveness to what we are saying are bugs, or just the devs telling us how the fight is supposed to go and then us just doing it? But at that point what’s the point of trying new content if w are just being told the exact specifics of it and doing nothing for ourselves

The difference is that rather than content being released to everyone, it can be tested in a more thorough manner before official release. It means less bugs for everyone else to deal with. It means you can provide feedback and pushback on the devs if people feel the fights are too tedious, too buggy, too difficult or the mechanics don’t make sense with the different battle disciplines, or if they don’t even make sense for VR.

Otherwise you could get content that gets released, can’t be beaten, doesn’t make sense, is more overtuned, unless this is what you want.

At any rate, it seems like the opinion on this is somewhat more divided than I initially though it would be based on my previous discussions with folks, so I will give it some further thought, but unfortunately this seems like a situation where some folks are going to be unhappy no matter what the outcome is, realistically.

Most of the community isn’t represented on this forum.

Also, you can’t please everyone. But I am making the case that open testing will please much more people than as fixing bugs before its officially released benefits everyone, even the ones who feel that open testing holds no different benefits than what it is now.

My assumption is that no I would not specifically tell you all how the fight is supposed to work, it would just be generally available for feedback, similar to how it works now when the raid first comes out. The main different I would think would be that a) there would be less impetus to have to get on and test it right when it drops since it’s not the start of a race timer, b) people might be more willing to group up with people across Fellowships, c) I could make tweaks and fix bugs immediately instead of having to wait for the reset to make it fair, that kind of thing. Basically I imagine it being more of a relaxed environment to get that all worked out, then it launches for “real” and that’s when the craziness begins.

I think both not telling at first, then explaining mechanics as people dive deeper into the fights and flush out the bugs makes a lot of sense, if things get to the point where people cannot figure out the fights. At the end of the day, its more about feedback, transparency, and getting it right. The rest of the playerbase will appreciate the efforts by both the community and the devs working in this way, as they only need to wait until its “ready” for launch.

But again, all of that does put a pretty big damper on the thrill and excitement of just going into a raid “fresh” and not knowing what’s going to happen on launch day. Which I get is the strong appeal for a lot of people.

This is a question you need to answer sooner rather than later. At what point is the value of some members of the two guilds racing each other for world first is worth more than making sure the game is operating at the very best so that people are more willing to introduce Orbus Reborn to others in VR who are skeptical?

At the very least, once all the bugs are fixed, you can always tweak parts of the fight so that isn’t exactly what is expected, without changing the mechanics. Trust me, the thrill and excitement will be there no matter what the first time its “officially released”. And again, that will be gone very shortly after.

Again I reiterate, fights that make sense, are balanced, bug free, and accommodate everyone makes for a much better game than fights that are being designed but not tested enough. The community will always find other ways to compete.

Also just to put it out there, I would rather the fights be less of a gear check and more of an execution check with multiple mechanics/phases. I’m not a fan of performing literally the same 3 mechanics for a 20 minute fight and would rather there be like 3 phases of different mechanics over 10-15 although I know time constraints are a thing.

This is something open testing can help with. After all feedback on mechanics and ideas that come froth from such testing will help Riley figure out what makes more sense execution wise than pure gear wise. And of course, one-shot mechanics can also be discussed at that point as to whether it works for a fight or not.

It also means addressing mechanics and giving Riley better ways of executing them so that maybe there will be less bugs.

And to that matter, feedback on gear progression is another thing that needs to be discussed in a new thread. With 8 battle disciplines, the possibility of set gear, and multiple attributes, high tier item drops can be extremely common (see Division, a game Riley pointed out) yet still take time to get all the gear for all the different builds/disciplines and get it optimized.

Gear still matters of course. It really depends on how gradual or easy the progression is.

I think the fights in general right now in the Raids are too long and we will be aiming for more like 5-10 minutes on most fights in the expansion. There will be a lot more mechanical difficulty for the whole raid, but also a lot less “one mistake you die” mechanics, we relied way too much on those, which I think is where a lot of the hard gear requirements came from.

Good to hear. Fights should be 5-10 minutes MAX (and closer to 5). The epicness of a fight doesn’t have anything to do with how long it takes if you get my drift. I am sure Reborn will have plenty of other things to do besides raiding, so the time people get back from not having to spend in Raids, will be spent in areas that will be more fulfilling.

I actually like the later fights being a gear/dps check. It adds to the progression so content can’t be skipped. I think it would be dumb if a lvl 25 could do a lvl 30 raid just b/c the player knows the mechanics. I also think the hard mode raid should be locked until you beat it on normal. This makes it so people can’t skip content.

I think the raids will work as you imagine it would be. Progression through normal is required to unlock hard. Everyone needs to be max level. Everyone needs to have minimum high tier gear. I wouldn’t worry so much about this until we see what the content is that Riley plans.

Again open testing will help in this aspect.

As for the DPS topic that got split and locked, we need to wait and see what the dev team has planned for the disciplines before we can draw conclusions that Reborn will be exactly like Orbus in terms of damage disciplines.

[Logan]

I really agree. The overall health of the game comes before a short competition between two guilds. I’d much rather have a bug free fight I know how to do than struggle and get disheartened by unavoidable bugs. Also if the rewards are good there would be a much higher repeat rate as opposed to “ugh I hate that fight because X bug makes it more frustrating than it’s worth. insert inevitable “damn it Riley! Fix your game!” Comment here if bugs do persist.