My opinion on Runemage's Runecasting

Yo guys, OrbusVR is a freakin’ amazing game, but i have just one annoyance with it:

Runecasting feels too inconsistent. I know of the shortcuts to certain spells and i know of the Chaperone/Guardian (Vive/Rift) grid tricks, but it’s still inconsistent. Here’s why, and i know of a solution:

The reason why it’s so inconsistent is because we are drawing in 3D. When you move your wand hand up and down you are actually moving it much like a " ) ", a semicircle, especially when fully stretched out. The game only recognizes spells if you draw them like a " | ", in flat 2D.

Most of the time you can’t even see how much Z-axis space there is between your lines, because you’re looking at your rune from the front. After you bend over to check you’ll find out that it’s about as curved as the tires of your bike, and then the spell fizzles!

For example Frostbolt 2 has a near 100% success rate because its only 1 line: " |\ ", easy to do in one quick motion. But then for example Affliction 2 has multiple lines which makes it near impossible to have exactly the same Z-axis on all of your lines, or have them perfectly straight. This makes the spell fizzle at least 50% for me.

Heres my suggestion to make it more consistent: Have the game remove the Z-axis check of your rune drawing so it basically “flattens” your rune drawing the moment your press the Cast button. This could even have a cool animation accompanying it. Change the 3D runes to have more lines to rebalance them. (fireball 3 for example could have 2 additional circles at the top and bottom, maybe even more stuff). The end result is a more consistent playstyle for runemages.

The reason why i think my suggestion is good is because skill floors are bad game design. Games are fun when they are easy to learn (100% succes rate on spells) but hard to master (more spells per second, more perfect-casts (those that do more damage, indicated by the blue flash animation), quick memorisation of which spells to use in certain situations (decision making skill))

Peace out.

P.S: If spells always flatten to 2D, you might as well make the rune drawing always float near the player who drew it, so you can draw on-the-move. Runemages can then prep a level 3 spell while moving from monster to monster.

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I like the 3D level of difficulty in the spells, and it is 100% not inconsistent- it is the caster that is. When I start missing spells I take a second to clear my head and poof I’m casting 100% again. If you haven’t already you should try entending your arm all the way out so the z plane becomes less of an issue :slight_smile:

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Hum what is that ?

as for the rest, Riley mentionned a lot of times, that for “2D spells”, so everything except lvl 3 spells, the Z axis doesn’t really matter that much. chances are if it doesn’t work, it’s about proportions ^^

i m personaly not a big fan of the system, but i have to admit the Z axis does not matter much in my experience

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I personally like the challenge and the difficulty level. I didn’t quit or feel annoyed when it took me about two days to cast my first spell, I kept trying till I got it. I find satisfaction at growing skill and mastering spells, and I think it’s neat that runemages are relatively varied with who is better at doing which particular spell. We will grow with time and improve with practice.

-Edited about 20 minutes later to include some additional thoughts below.

It’s undeniable there is demand for the runemage to be simpler / easier, and those who want it so do have a valid opinion. I consider it more like yoyo-ing or skating. NO ONE gets it at first, and tons of people quit. But there is this niche market of people who don’t want everything to be simple or easy. We want to push and challenge ourselves, because that is our definition of fun. We’re gonna tackle that impossible thing and we’re gonna do it, dagnabit! Then those master yoyo people and people that can show off at skate parks - isn’t it amazing?! Yes, yes it is. In gaming there’s not much opportunity to have this level of personal improvement that genuinely takes time and patience, and I think it really means a lot to some of us to preserve that. At least while failing at runemage we only virtually die instead of scrape knees or break bones. But that’s my two cents, and I’ll end it here.

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@seb_D

The trick is to have the Chaperone/Guardian grid wall show up in your VR glasses to use as a frame of reference. Think of it as having a piece of paper to try and write on.

Also in my own testing, a curved ice lance arrow (in the Z-axis of course) will always fizzle wheras a perfectly straight one will always work. As i said i’m using the chaperone grid to write on, so my proportions are the same, every time. It’s always the Z axis thats screwing me over on the somewhat more difficult spells though.

ohh that’s a smart trick ^^
Thanks !

hum, i think we all have very different experiences with the casting in orbus, at this point i m not really willing to bet on one cause or another, just in my experience, having the lines of a “normal” frostbolt 2 on different parallel planes (slighlty in front for example) doesn’t screw up my spell

For more difficult spells, i m not sure, it’s a lot harder to verify…

no no the z axis is important on 2d spells.

That’s why it’s requested you look around to the side in video’s showing your casting. He said it is fairly forgiving but it is still important -

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Draw with an extended arm.

“Tons of people quit . . . There is this niche market . . . There’s not much opportunity to have this level of personal improvement . . .”

Unless changes are made, did you ever consider when writing this that these points are arguments as to why Orbus won’t ultimately be a successful and heavily populated MMORPG? If the Devs want a niche game focused heavily on one class that gets the majority of attention and power then more power to them and that niche market. I enjoy Orbus but don’t see it maintaining market share once competitors come along if changes aren’t made. I just shake my head when I read posts about people spending hours or days learning how to cast a spell and then cite that as a quality thing for a game and something that will draw people to the game long term. Good luck with that one.

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It is certainly debatable, and you’re right, my statements can just as easily be considered a con instead of a pro - it will depend on the individual. However, since the general market already seems relatively saturated with “easy stuff,” I have faith that Orbus has a chance to stand out. I find it somewhat unrealistic to consider a mechanic of one optional class to be the determining factor of success/failure for the game as a whole unless you meant to include each class and the overall difficulty of the game (like having a map and compass that doesn’t show “you are here, follow this path to point B.”)

The game is creative, innovative, and challenging. Some people hate it, and some people find it a breath of fresh air. We’ll get our footing with early access and see what happens. I’m definitely rooting for this game’s long term success, even if my take on it isn’t the one that prevails. It sure has been nice to feel challenged and feel accomplished, though.

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I’m not saying casting shouldn’t reward practice, i’m saying that the skill floor is too high due to inconsistency of the Z-axis.

If all runes would be 2D and the Z-axis would be ignored by the rune parsing system then all it would do is lower the skill floor.

There could still be challenge in even bigger 2D runes with even more lines, drawing them faster, using the right ones in the right situation, etc. The skillgap between beginners and archmages would still be huge!

For me there is a big difference in stretching out my arm and drawing a rune vs having my arm close to my chest, but from the front its the exact same rune! It shouldn’t have to matter IMO, my suggestion is to ignore the Z-axis and flatten the rune upon cast before its parsed.

After grinding to 20 on a runemage, I will say that all spells will eventually feel natrual with the current system. I love the current system, just would like fireball 3 to be a little more useful. I cannot cast pushback 2, but I know some who can. Its all about practice, and patience. Runemage is meant to be the hardest class in the game to master.

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I consider it more like yoyo-ing or skating. NO ONE gets it at first, and tons of people quit. But there is this niche market of people who don’t want everything to be simple or easy. We want to push and challenge ourselves, because that is our definition of fun. We’re gonna tackle that impossible thing and we’re gonna do it, dagnabit! Then those master yoyo people and people that can show off at skate parks - isn’t it amazing?! Yes, yes it is.

The thing is, master yoyo’ers / skateboarders use good equipment. Just making it hard doesn’t mean its good. It has to be hard but fair. I used to play with diabolo’s a lot. I started out with shit equipment, and doing simple tricks was really hard. Did that make it more fun? No. When I started practicing with better equipment I learned tricks I previously didn’t even know where possible. I had a lot more fun that way, cause I could learn harder and more impressive things.

So I think you should just make the runecasting more consistant. You can then add more complex drawings if needed.

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@Airis has the point. This is not an usual MMORPG, this is VRMMORPG. If you cant use a class because you at not able to cast spells, maybe you must looking for another class.

I was playing more than 70 hours as runemage, and I can cast all spells. This is the main difference with others MMOs, here YOU is who must aim, who must do the runes, who must cover you with your shield. If you dont know to play this VR game, maybe you are not looking for a VR game and you need looking for another MMO game not VR.

Its not a game for all people, because YOU must do the thing that in other games you do only pressing a key.

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@Arthan

First of all, everyone should be able to cast spells, or they’d flock to another game. this is game design 101, especially for an MMORPG. Stop feeling special just because you spent 70 hours trying to learn wonky controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushnell’s_Law

Secondly, i’m going to steal @seb_D 's videos for my Z-axis argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75P3cym64W0 vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf2ah0DTC64

In the first video he draws perfect ice lances back to back, the second video he does the same thing, the rune looks exactly the same (from the front), but the camera angle is different, therefore the Z-axis is interfering, and boom: inconsistent. The exact same rune in the second video does NOT cast ANY spells for at least 5 attempts in a row. Flattening the rune before cast should resolve this. Consistency is the key word here.

Again, to repeat what i said earlier, runecasting should be easy to learn, but hard to master.
easy to learn = not taking 70 hours to actually cast pushback 2, but more like 1 hour tops.
hard to master = remembering to use it at the right time, drawing it quickly without making a mess of your rune, and practicing to get perfect casts off (not struggling for normal casts).

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You got my comment in the bad way. I was telling you that to play runemage you must spend a lot of time to learn how to cast each spell, It not was about “im special because i can do it”.

Spend time, and if you dont want learn and spend time… I told you, maybe you must looking another class.

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Everyone can master the stuff if you spend the time doing it. Runemages have a ton of things to master however beyond simply casting a spell successfully. I think his point is that doing the basic stuff like casting a spell, should have enough tolerance so that players can get it off without a hitch as long as they draw a reasonable drawing. Much like the rest of the classes. So there is class parity in starting difficulty. Runemages have a lot of stuff they can master down the road but at the start, it should be easy. Not “20+ hours” to actually start to get good at casting a few spells.

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You seem to be confusing consistency with lowering the skill floor. That’s not really the same thing. If they draw the rune exactly the same every time (including on Z-Axis), then the spell will cast exactly the same every time. The system is already perfectly consistent.

Really this whole discussion can be summed up by the discussion about the skill floor vs skill ceiling of the Runemage class. Right now the skill floor and ceiling are very high. You have to practice for several hours just to be able to play the class at a basic level. Things like not flattening the Z-Axis contribute toward that high skill floor, as to successfully cast a spell you have to: memorize it, be able to draw at least somewhat straight lines, be able to draw flat on the Z-Axis, be able to draw the spell proportionally correct, and then of course just be able to draw the spell design at all in general. Then add in the fact that if you can’t draw fast enough to get off 3 or 4 Fireball 1 spells in combat you will die. So a lot goes into that floor.

Then the skill ceiling is even higher because you’ve got lots of spells to learn which each do different things in different situations, you can learn to cast faster so you can actually have more than one spell going at once, you can learn shortcuts for each spell, you can practice until you have muscle memory for each spell, etc.

I don’t think it’s correct to make the basic claim that “any game with a high skill floor is badly designed.” People still seem to enjoy golf and most people can’t really play it until they spend a lot of time practicing at the driving range. Your first games will be filled with duffs or slices and a lot of balls out of bounds, not straight shots down the fairway. And obviously no one enjoys that. You might even throw down your club in anger and say “But I’m swinging the same way every time!”

The design of the Runemage class at its core is supposed to be a high skill floor, high skill ceiling class. That’s how it’s always been, and I don’t really intend to change that. I also don’t think it’s true that the Runemage is the class that receives the most development focus at all. I’ve spent way more time working on the Ranger in the past week, for example. I do think it receives a lot of attention from the player base, though, because a) it’s a divisive topic to some degree, b) it’s frustrating, and c) out of all the classes it’s the least like anything else in another VR game. If anything most of my Runemage “development time” is just spending time discussing the class like I am right now, haha.

In addition to all of that, as I’ve said in other threads before, the idea of just pressing a magic switch and making the class “easier” wouldn’t even really work. The “looser” I make the spell detection (so that for example sloppier drawings still cast, or the Z-axis matters less), the more likely it is that you will get a mis-detection of a different spell. I have experimented a lot back in the Beta days with those modifications, and basically you just end up with a system where if you try to cast Fireball 1 half the time you get something else. You do fail spells a lot less often, but I’m not sure that’s all that great of a solution.

However, I do think there is a difference between a high skill floor and providing the player with more information that might help them determine why they are failing. Since the Z-Axis seems to be a major pain point for a lot of folks, perhaps a good solution is coloring the line differently when it goes into the Z-Axis? That way you could look at a rune drawing and go “oh see how it’s turning Red there? That means you aren’t drawing it flat on that part”. Things like that I think would help make it more clear what’s going on and what’s important to pay attention to for accomplishing a successful cast, which I think would help.

Anyway, just a giant wall of text of my own thoughts on the matter and some of the thinking that goes on behind the scenes on these topics.

One other note I wanted to make, there are a few places in this thread (and others) where folks say things like “If you don’t do it this way people are going to abandon the game and it will fail,” or “Successful MMOs did it this way so you have to do it this way too!” Personally, those arguments don’t really hold a lot of sway. We’re making the game that we set out to make. And that includes with the community’s input (which is why I’m on here having this discussion about it). If the game we make doesn’t sell well or fails, so be it. I’d rather make the game I believe in and have it fail than make a game that is just a watered-down copy of other games, or base design decisions on what will appeal to the lowest common denominator. By all indications, the game is doing just fine anyway, but I’m just letting you know how we’re approaching this.

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I have no complaints personally about the Runemage class being difficult. I quite enjoy the reward when I manage to master a spell. However, I completely agree we need more information on why we fail a spell. What I would love is to enter a “training mode” for a specific spell. Then color the parts of the line or something that cause the spell to fail. For example, if I’m training Ice Lance and it fails because the right side of the line is too long then highlight that segment.

I mention Ice Lance in specific because I struggle the most with the spell. Lots of people have tried to teach it to me, and I definitely understand that there must be something I do wrong, but it’s difficult to determine what without proper feedback.

Perhaps it could be an NPC that does the training. We pay some dram to the witch lady to give us some tutoring on a spell, why we fail it, etc.

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First: As someone who has spent over 4 days as a Runemage (grinded all the way to 20 with no quests), I love the system and I think that your “colored” lines idea would be a HUGE improvement so people know what they are doing wrong. I have played a TON of MMO’s, and just because ONE class is hard to play, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t play the game. If anything, I would just not play that class…

Second.:Just want to plug this in… as someone who can cast VERY fast, there is currently no point in using Fire 3. I can cast it perfectly and as rapidly as possible but it doesn’t even come close to just spamming frost 2 or fire 2. I can cast 3 fireball 2’s before 1 fire 3, and fire 3 only does about 30% more damage. People say it can be used as an opener… no it can’t. A) You need Frost to give you the bonus for that to make any sense, and B) it makes WAY more sense to start with affliction 2 as it does more damage anyways over time.

-Possible Solution: Give it a DOT that burns or have it do more damage. Honestly I think the DOT would be better to keep mages doing a rotation, especially for bosses, rather than just spamming 1/2 spells. This also helps to improve Runesets. If this is planned for the talent update, please disregard :smiley:

Frost 3 does not have this problem since it has an incredible slow that works great for solo kiting compared to Frost 2. THAT is truly an opener.

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