I commented about this in another thread, but I want to say it again here.
Right now there isn’t enough difference between higher and lower level spells aside from damage to encourage rotation variety. Most people do what you do, cast the middle spell because it’s faster to draw and does the better dmg/sec. The few exceptions we see to this are the ice combo (for those of us able to consistently pull it off) and affliction opener.
It would help a lot to see each stage of a spell type have it’s own unique effect or combo bonus. This way we don’t see spells fall out of use just because they aren’t the best dmg/sec
1000 times this. Any real world sport requires hours of practice to perform at a “basic” level. VR is a totally new format where your actual skill can translate into a game. To compare it to something like WoW and say “I’m not just pressing a button - no one will enjoy this” fly’s in the face of thousands of years of physical games we all enjoy.
Firstly, I will concede to you that i mix the terms “consistency” and “skill floor” quite loosely in my arguments. I’m sorry if this bothers you or fails to make sense, English is not my native language.
Secondly, a game with a high skill floor is indeed not necessarily bad designed, it just means that it targets a more niche audience. Namely the audience that wishes to and is able to overcome such floor. Which to me feels counterproductive as the game is a MMORPG, you want as many players as you can draw in, right? On the other hand, this is the first VR MMORPG on the market so i doubt it ‘can’ fail, at all. Besides, as you said, you’d rather make the game you believe in yourself, personally. If i were in your shoes though, i’d lower said floor.
Thirdly, making the detection “looser” is not what i meant at all. I don’t even mind if you make it “tighter” (for the 2D XY part). All im saying is by removing the 3D aspect of it (eg: ‘flattening the rune a player drew’, stop checking the z-axis, whatever you wanna call it) you lower down the skill floor significantly by making it easier and more intuitive to activate a spell. As per your examples (multiple spells at once, shortcuts, muscle memory) the ceiling would still be huge, which to me is still good design.
I respect the way you think though. After all, you’re the director and i’m glad you’re active in your game’s community. I just wanted to put out my suggestion and if that contradicts your design philosophy then no problemo!
P.S: Just make sure to compare both video’s from @seb_D, if you haven’t already, please. I think those are great fuel for your design process
As I said, removing the 3D aspect of it isn’t really possible without making the spell detection too loose, unless we just get rid of 3D runes entirely (e.g. no Tier 3 Fireball/Frostbolt). But hopefully more information will help with that.
I have looked at those videos, and in fact if you scroll up through that thread you’ll see a did a full analysis of one of the earlier posts to help show how the system works. I agree that just looking at the video it can be hard to tell what’s going wrong, though, which is where I think the different coloring of the lines will help hopefully.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback, and as I said my post was just my own thoughts, I am always interested to hear everyone else’s as well. It’s very humbling to see everyone playing and enjoying the game, and of course everyone has a different opinion of what they want to see happen. Just trying to hopefully be transparent about our process so everyone knows we do listen.
Agree with the design goal and I like how runemage is currently balanced. Also agree that spells failures could use just a bit more feedback to aide in where to focus the practice.
Along the same line of not knowing what went wrong with lvl 3 spells, I thought of suggesting that if the lvl 2 portion was good but the lvl 3 portion was bad, that the spell should produce a lvl 1 result. That would clue the mage into why it didn’t work and also not be a complete waste of spell casting time. But that could mess with the balance and I like your idea of the color feedback better.
I’m going to lead into the idea I’m about to post by saying up front that I don’t like it. I think it would provide some relief to all of the folks that say they can’t learn to cast for on reason or another, but would likely open up an entirely different can of worms for complaints.
My idea is a combination of a lot of ideas that have been thrown around lately for the rune mage: it would give us an offhand item and chest candy, give a “reason” to explore the world to find rune pillars, alleviate the inability to cast certain spells, and provide training in the “proper” way to draw spells as it is used.
Offhand spell book.
One page dedicated to each spell you have located the pillar or figure for.
Holding the offhand trigger slowly! casts the spell on the page at 2-3x slower than a skilled mage could spam the same ability. As the spell casts, it is magically drawn correctly in the space in front of you and changes color to indicate ready-to-cast status, at which point you release the trigger to fire.
Movement breaks the cast, taking damage causes a chance to “fizzle” by either disrupting the drawing or the typical bamph sounds effect as your spellshape goes poof.
I suggest the chance for a “perfect” cast with damage bonus to be maybe 2x crit chance (play with numbers to balance)
I’m not a big fan of the idea, but it answers a lot of the feedback that the Runemage has gotten on the forums since early access started. The class would start out similar to traditional MMO caster classes and allow someone to go out and kill equal/lower level mobs safely as they learn. Peer pressure and inability to find a group in the higher levels would force players to learn the trucks of the class to increase their versatility and DPS. It would also give non-mage players the ability to equip their wands and slowly put up portals.
Just brainstorming solutions to common complaints. Personally, I love the state of the class as it is. I’m near 150 hours played, stop at the training dummies regularly to teach, and am still learning new things almost daily. The fact the the class seems so rigid, yet continues to evolve more and different flexibilities for speed casting, alternate cast shapes, and tricks to improve… It’s mind blowing.
Now all I need is to be able to dual wield wands so that I can cast like playing a piano! ;D
Yes!
Though I would become The Greatest Rune Archmage of Patryael if I could dual wield wands like I spec’d my Torchlight 2 Ember Mage character to have! Muahahahahaaaaaa!
I can already picture it:
Hold both controllers against each other (your palms facing each other) bracing against each other and drawing the same rune with each together then POOF both wands have the same spell ready at once.
BAM BAM – eat my Fireballs-2, you Redtails!
Of course then we’d “demand” that we could have 2 Polymorphs in effect at once.
In my head now I have a picture of a Rune Mage with Fireball 3 ready on the wand, body turned sideways to a bad bad man whom the Rune Mage just displaced with a Pushback, wand arm outstretched with wand pointing at him, and chugging a health potion while daring the bad man to start attacking again.
=)
I love the idea of coloring the lines or maybe some sort of gradient/lighting effect to help distinguish the 3D aspect. I am somewhat surprised that I want this, as VR gives us depth perception, but I still find it difficult sometimes to realize how off I may be in some of my lines when it looks fine from my current perspective. As I was analyzing my lines for Frostbolt 3, I noticed a 3-line intersection I thought I was drawing was much further off than I imagined. This wasn’t just for my “3D” line (even though I consistently get “perfect” casts on level 2).
If you don’t like that visual indication always being on, then I like the idea of a training mode (like @Emrys mentioned). I’m worried that specifically showing which part(s) is wrong may be too easy. Maybe a training mode (possibly confined to a location, like the player house or Tinny’s cave) that will better help you understand your mistakes through visual cues. The training mode would show if you were successful, but wouldn’t actually cast the spell (so you still have to be able to cast without the “training wheels”).
I’m not actually sure which one I would prefer (always on depth effect or training mode). Just my two cents.
For reference, I am a level 15 Runemage with about 80 hours in game (also leveled musketeer). I want to say I can cast all the spells with a minimum success rate of 50ish%. Another way to say this is that if I want to cast a spell, I feel like I can do it without too much trouble. The only exception to this for me is Frostbolt 3 (unfortunately I’ve only just began to practice it recently).
Right, that’s what I meant when I was talking about paying dram to the witch lady. Just a training mode session while there, to help you figure out what you’re doing wrong. Out in the “real world” you couldn’t use the training mode.
I am getting a little George Lucas thought process / response / attitude regarding the prequels vibe here - and that resulted in us getting Jar Jar (and worse). I may be in the vast minority here but I will give my thoughts as you genuinely seem to want them even if they come in the form of disagreement or constructive criticism.
My overall take from your detailed and insightful post was “I hear all the concerns and complaints but this is the way it is going to stay.” You used language that seemed to convey the opposite at times but that is just my personal reading of the post (again not to start a fight or flame - just to give my opinion on how I read it).
I also think your golf analogy misses the mark. I may be wrong but I don’t think you set out to create a class (Runemage) that people with injuries or even minor disabilities are unable to play. With golf, there are people with injuries or physical ailments that are unable to play the sport. They then have to pick a new sport or activity. In this case, I don’t think you really want people picking a different game over being unable to realize their dream of playing a wizard in VR which is why so many are drawn to the game.
Speaking for myself, you have created a class that I am literally unable to play with its current design due to significant shoulder injuries. The only class I can play is the Musketeer and perhaps that is why you made a class that doesn’t require as much repetitive motion that causes joint pain, etc. If that was a consideration then please know you have my thanks as I would not be able to play Orbus without that class. I do disagree with you about the love shown to Runemages vs. other classes. I don’t doubt you spend a lot of time developing other classes but the proof is in the pudding. Runemages are ultra-powerful with a dramatic list of abilities. I already hit on the resurrection issue in other posts as it is something unique to casters that absolutely fits into the healer role. There is a reason so many people spend hours trying to be a Runemage and it isn’t just because they watched Harry Potter 10000 times. I digress.
I have found workarounds that don’t cause much pain when playing the musketeer which is nice. That can not be said for the other classes - especially the Runemage.
I think one of the issues people on the other side of the debate are trying to tell you is that if changes are not made to the Runemage casting system to some degree it will alienate a lot of people (especially new players that have not been involved with testing for the last year or two) and ultimately have a negative impact on Orbus’ success long term. That may not matter or be enough to cause a change but I am confident that the input is coming from a good place and from people who want Orbus to succeed and be around for years to come with a large player base and world.
A worry is that a stubborn refusal to modify and lower the difficulty in playing the class / casting spells will be self-defeating. A worry is that the atttude quoted above at the top of this response will lead to a niche game for a small group of hardcore fans while the majority of people find a new VR MMORPG that takes a different and more open approach.
Just my thoughts. I hope they are taken in the spirit they are meant and not just the start of flames by some.
I don’t get that vibe at all - it just seems like he is saying he hears what people are saying, then detailing the devs’ vision and why they have done things differently. This is not delusional, it’s just not agreeing with every idea of how things should be.
Injuries suck. I love brazilian jiu jitsu and love practicing it, and have an injury that will mean I simply can’t do open rolling(sparring) sometimes. Unfortunately my professor is not about to change the rules of BJJ to avoid my injury, as that would hinder and water down many other players’ experience on the mats. I can roll with friends who I can ask to avoid my injury, but to want the whole sport changed just so I don’t feel at a disadvantage would be selfish and also send the competitive players to other forms of grappling that were willing to allow dynamic movement.
So… you can play with friends who are willing to accomodate you, or simply take a different approach, but by changing the game to accommodate those with injuries will simply turn it back into a sitting and key pressing experience that i’m not here for. The devs get that and it has nothing to do with the delusional thought process behind Jar Jar Binks
Edited to add that I think the “missed area” of a rune changing colour after an unsuccessful cast would be a great idea, and help many struggling with casting to improve!
I already addressed your jiu jitsu argument as it is the golf argument with slightly different packaging. I also practiced jiu jitsu until forced to quit due to injuries. One thing you know if you practiced jiu jitsu (or any martial art for that matter) is the huge number of people who try it and then move on. It is a reason so many have a hard time staying in business. I don’t think a MMORPG is going to thrive on a model where people are drawn in wanting to play a wizard and then can’t, try one of the classes but ultimately leave.
I see your point but don’t think it applies in this gaming context. I also am not advocating that you just push a button to cast. I don’t think anyone on the othe side of this debate is proposing any such thing.
I understand what you mean… but then, where does it end? They change runes to accommodate a shoulder injury - but then the player with tennis elbow speaks up. Then the amateur blacksmith/office worker combo guy speaks up about carpel tunnel. In your former post you mentioned that you doubted the devs made the game wanting to leave out folks with injuries abd disabilities - of course they don’t, just like my brothers in BJJ don’t want me to sit on the sidelines and ref tournaments - but sometimes the line between competition and accommodation has to exist somewhere. Honestly I really hate the idea of someone’s hopes resting on a wizard and their body not being up to it, there are a ton of examples of this in gaming already though. There are also a ton of less physically demanding games where one can play a wizard. I specifically love the idea of Orbus because it is not like them in the way it’s played.
I for sure believe nobody wants it to be sit and click, it seems like it’s just tough to agree where on the spectrum of physicality it belongs. This comes up in many various discussions and Riley has posted pics drawn over folks videos trying to help them - a lot of effort to help someone he too wishes could overcome casting. Either way, I really hope some day they can shoot us both full of stem cells and that your shoulder feels much better. Regards
I just wanted to highlight this part because I think it’s worth diving into a little.
When designing the Runemage, what I did was to sit down and say, “What’s a cool thing you can only do in VR that really showcases it in a way you could never have it work on a regular 2D game?” I decided that drawing runes in mid-air to cast spells was what fit that bill. I then decided I wanted the class to have a large variety of spells it could cast at a moment’s notice, and that it should be an advanced class that took actual time and practice to acquire a real skill to perform well at, instead of just how quickly you can hit a sequence of buttons on a keyboard.
The result we have today is the result of that design process. I didn’t start with it the way it is, it got there through like a year of testing, refining, and experimenting with what best allowed me to accomplish those original design goals.
When full-dive VR comes out, I will be the first person to jump on board and port over the game. It sucks that we’re still at a place where you have to perform actual physical movements and that it excludes some people from doing some things in the game, be it the Runemage, the Warrior, fishing, or anything else. But I mean that’s the technology. There’s no scenario yet where I can let someone have the experience of actually casting a fishing pole without making them actually make the casting motion in real life.
In the mean time, I do take into consideration the physical exertion/ability required to play each class. There’s basically a spectrum right now. Warrior → Ranger → Runemage → Musketeer. That was not an accident.
I actually think Runemage is a pretty low-impact class physically, but I get that there are going to be some issues that prevent people from playing it. That’s unfortunate, but I don’t think the solution is “make the Runemage easier”, because then I think it loses what makes it interesting to a lot of people. I think the solution is, make more cool classes that are interesting and unique on their own merits that use different mechanics.
For example, I would love to do a class that involves finger movements once the new Knuckles controllers come out. Of course, there are going to be people who don’t have those controllers. Or people who have lower finger dexterity than large motion dexterity.
I guess I’m trying to say, this is new ground we’re breaking, and we’re trying our best to take it all into consideration as much as we can. But at the end of the day I think the goal should be provide many classes that are fun to play, not just make a single class that everyone can play.
If you have ideas on how to make the Runemage more friendly to those with shoulder problems without reducing the difficulty of the class overall, though, I would be more than happy to read them.
Finally:
C’mon, that feels like a pretty low blow
I’m not saying that nothing is going to change (there are already changes coming to many classes in the Talents system based on community feedback), and you have to look no further than the latest patch notes to see that we listen to the community and change things based on feedback. But at the same time, there has to be a core vision for the game and what each class will be, or the game will end up designed by committee, and that doesn’t work either. Finding the balance between those two things is always a difficult challenge, but I appreciate your feedback.
Also, again, I’ve already offered a possible solution to the original suggestion that I am working on right now, so things do change to some degree.
That core vision is so important to so many long time gamers… and so is a dev taking the time to outline their design philosophy and also hear out folks like Jason who are also investing energy in their passion for the game by sharing on the forums. As a new player seeing the excitement for new classes and options for players from a dev rather than just adjustments to the “meta” is so very refreshing.
Even now, I am imagining a “sorceror” who rather than casting complex runes does slower, broader gestures to buff friends and debuff enemies, lending their raw, instinctual power to a battle… or, though i’m sure there will be objections, let them use VOICE to utter the correct spells…
