Take icelance for example. That spell has a halfish second casting delay simply due to the animation after cast. It was so infuriating for mages that we ended up finding ways to bypass that animation. This is known in traditional MMORPGs as animation canceling, which is done by every dps class ever once it was developed.
Having delays in traditional MMORPGs is fine because you aren’t doing any actual activity, but rather simply pressing a button. In VR, having delays on how fast your physical body can move makes things feel like crap and makes you feel like you can’t get to your full potential (Rapidity rangers, for example). I would absolutely agree with what Cam was saying above; buff ranger inherently, give both scoundrel and ranger a wider skill gap for them to work through equal to that of mage.
Additionally,
I think that this is a great idea. This would fall right in line with a better scoundrel skill gap.
Maybe Scott’s idea of diminishing returns when you cast faster is a better way to go about capping mage damage. However it’s done damage potential needs to be capped in some way for dps to ever be balanced. Every other class has a cap in one form or another. There was more of a cap on mage damage before the change was made to how the server checks if a spell was drawn correctly. This was the right change to make as different players had more of a cap based on their latentcy. But since that change was made the fastest mages got even faster. Which widened the skill gap between low and high skill mages.
There are mechanics issues and tweaking to be done, as there are always in every game.
The biggest way of balancing the classes atm, however, is to create content that allows certain classes to shine in certain content.
The mage in orbus is so player-skilled dependent that it is almost unfair to make class defining changes based on the few players that are just crazy good at playing mage.
Granted, if people are hurting themselves for going too far physically then there should simply be a policy in place that states if the player hurts themselves during play it’s their own fault. Same as if someone doesn’t take precautions when handling a gun and accidentally shoots a finger off or something. It’s not the manufacturer’s problem, it’s the individual’s problem.
in the end this is a game, as of now the only way to get the best of the best dps is to be a mage. that is horrible game design, whether or not the answer is a nerf or a buff, a lot of what people are saying in here is leading towards leave it because people worked for it.
not only that, everyone talks about that being damaging to your own body, but then everyone forgets the single most physically difficult is also the worst dps out of any of the dps, and of course yes i mean rapidity ranger
I appreciate that you’re lifting the hood and looking at the numbers on what the various classes can do as far as damage. However this knowledge is also kind of a curse. I hate knowing that my class is objectively worse than others - this kind of mindset is also what leads to really homogeneous and stale metas in video games. I hope Orbus gets consistently patched in order to give us the best balanced experience possible.
The fact that mage damage is more untethered from limitations and varies more with skill than other classes is part of what makes the class, in my opinion, one of the mechanically best classes. Why should we remove what makes the class fun and rewarding to play with arbitrary cooldowns, pauses, diminishing returns, or other hindering methods? Why not just focus on making the other classes even more skill dependent, so as to give each class a wide range of damage based on skill and can be balanced similarly to mage?
With the changes around latency, the fastest mages got faster because essentially a cap was removed. That doesn’t mean mages have infinite potential now; it still takes a certain amount of time to release the spell and to draw it in the first place. This let those skilled mages clearly differentiate themselves from other mages, whereas before it was a close match. Don’t add another cap like this.
The only way to balance a class that has no mechanical limits is to remove all the other limits of the other classes, which isn’t really a option. Do u have any specific ideas how to balance mage with other classes then?
Of course it has mechanical limits; do you see any mages shooting 2 spells per second? 3? 10 spells per second? The limit is just changed from a lag-cap based limit to a nearly purely mechanical limit (not a cooldown based limit), which widensed the skill/damage distribution and allowed higher ping mages to shine. The other classes should have mechanical limits too, of course, but they can have a wider skill/damage distribution with more mechanics that take time to master (i.e. something like weak points for scoundrels, or more of a dependence on properly using and timing cards for damage) so that the skill/damage distributions can match up and be balanced similarly.
Yea I have seen mages doing 2 per second, and have heard of a 3.8 per second. Doing that is purely skill based I agree, but that is the problem. When u are saying that every class should rocket up in dps based on skill, how do u balance anything? For scoundrel u mention having weak points, but then that is capped to how many weak points spawn, not like the cast as fast as u can with no cap mage with ever rising dps. So to balance ur scoundrel idea with mage as it is, should hitting weak points alone give u an extra 50% dps? Is there another layer beyond that, and then with ranger what then? They are already capped by the range they need, waiting for weak points and arrows to respawn, and a very strict arrow per second ration they need to follow. In ur example why not just remove the arrow cap. Everytime I suggest something like that it’s met with many no’s because no one is rapidity, but here we are with mage and everyone saying it’s fine to have it physically push yourself to the limit and make that the norm for the entire class
Unless you have a video or name for anything more than 2, I find that extremely hard to believe. 2 spells per second is faster than it seems; count out how many spells they cast in a minute and see if it’s at all close to 120. Much less 3.8… 3.8 would be pulling something like 125k-175k dps.
You asked for a specific idea to balance, so I told you that weak points and more importance on cards would increase the skill gap (instead of just shooting bullets at the boss and tossing up cards in a basic rotation, the details of the rotation and your aim matter more). You balance everything by creating a similar distribution of damage/skill for each class then matching damage on the middle end, high end, low end, or whichever end (if the distributions are equal then the damage can be the same at any given skill level across all classes). There is a physical limit to how quickly you can accuartely draw the spell runes, and a game limit from the small delay that still occurs from pressing the launch button and waiting.
Range doesn’t cap ranger dps; it just is a requirement to reach max dps. Right now, ranger and scoundrel are capped by cooldowns. The rapidity cap is very different from the mage cap; the rapidity cap stops rangers from winning by being physically stronger and having more stamina. Sure, you have to be able to aim the arrows while shooting at speed for rapidity, but it’s much easier to pick this up than it is to learn to cast consistently. It’s not about just physically pushing yourself, but also perfecting technique and optimizing shortcuts while building muscle memory.
The rapidity cap is almost exactly the same as a cap on mage spells. Firing arrows at the cap or over has very little to do with strength. It has far more to do with very fast and precise movements, grabs, and releases. Just like casting mage spells.
I see mages sitting in circles in Highsteppe, learning the best ways to cast and spending hours practicing to get a single spell off. I’ve never seen anything like that for rangers.
I’m saying the casting mechanic for mages is more skill based than the arrow drawing and shooting mevhanic for rangers. By no means does the ranger class lack skill; the skill is also in perfecting the cooldown management, managing distance, and hitting weak points. The casting mechanic is the main skill differentiator among mages-we can curve our spells and hit anywhere on the boss. That’s why I say it’s ok for damage to fluctuate largely with cast speed. Ranger damage should also fluctuate with skill based mechanics, but the arrow drawing technique and firing speed alone is not enough to differentiate rangers and create a wide distribution.
Completely maxing out any class is extremely skill based. As it stands mages near the skill limits get far more reward for small improvements than any other class. This is what is completely out of balance. The difference in skill required to do what I’m capable of doing and versus a ranger doing even 10% less than me is huge. Though it seems hardly noticeable on a damage meter.
It’s extremely frustrating to me to have spent so much time and effort to master the ranger class then run dungeons with mages that absolutely destroy me on damage all while bringing far more benefit to the group via all their utility abilities.
That’s why I’m saying that ranger and scoundrel should have a wider range of damage from a wider range of skill. Noticeable dps improvement from skill improvement is what makes mage good and rewarding to play. Ranger should have a similarly wide distribution to make the class more rewarding, rather than limiting mages to make them equally unrewarding.
Cam… all other classes are more or less hardcaped. Rapidity got nerfed because people where fireing way more then 4 per second. I’m saying with the currently unlimited spellspeed there should be a similar mechanic in place, 0-ing the damage and forcing mages to get better at other parts, such as perfect cast, and he’ll, maybe even weak points.