Mate it took me literally hundreds of hours to get good at fireball spam and I have seen so many mages just give up because of how much practicing you gotta put into runemage. Also I’m 99% sure a dungeon does not give 16k exp I used dungeons to level up all 8 classes to 30 and dungeons did not give that much lmao
They are talking about combined exp I think (5 people).
See, you are good at fireball spam, but how will that affect your body over the course of several months or several years?
median nerve compression
repetitive strain injury (grouping)
from playing hardcore mage after 7-8 months after playing 6+ hours a day my wrist was hurting like crazy and now I can’t play the class for longer than half an hour without it hurting and I sleep with a wrist brace each night to help with it so its definitely not a healthy thing unless its done in moderation
And that is exactly why I say deterring fireball spam (or really any form of spamming) is important.
It is why I do this weird shortcut for my warrior that looks like it wouldn’t work - it is less of a burden on my body and I can easily vary it.
It is why I purposefully don’t spam spells (though I do make shortcuts for myself to use (currently I have one shortcut where I change the angle to cast a different spell)).
That kind of injury is exactly what I’m trying to avoid myself and personally, I think the devs should implement something to help reduce that sort of injury from happening to others. While I think there would be too many problems from adding a mana bar (the amount of balancing and testing for that…), I do think that something needs to be done.
I know a lot of mages have spent hours learning to spam cast, but despite the backlash and anger from mages, I think the potential health benefits is worth the backlash if the devs are considering in the health of their userbase.
I personally think that any mage can be the best with time and moderation and if a mage decides to just throw away there body that is completely there choice you can still do respectable numbers without going crazy for months straight and over time you can get to some crazy high numbers without just throwing health out of the window but I do agree that the health problems are an issue but this definitely isn’t the way to do in my eyes and it may never be able to be changed except for a little warning with something along the lines of end game of this class can be very stressful on your arms or something
Honestly I see your point and what you were saying but in my personal Canyon. What you have said does come out to be that people who have casted for hundreds of hours do have wrist problems. I have problems as well from many hours I’ve spent on playing as a mage. But that does not disclose the other which I mean all classes that have the same problem. Warrior and Ranger and scoundrel all have the exact same problem involving a lot of physical movement in exercise. To keep enough aggro against most DPS in endgame content you have to be a very fast Warrior which affects your wrist and arm. To be a very good Ranger scoundrel you have to do physical exercise that is the basis of all the classes and that is why skill and physical skill is good. just saying the A mana bar would stop the people hurting themselves over casting won’t really affect anything unless you want to add a Mana bar to how fast you move a sword Or how fast you swing your gun or pull your bow. it is all your choice what you do or how you do your body I stretch before I play because it helps my wrist and doesn’t get me hurt. and by the time it takes to get to where the high level dps are you should already be used to or have figured out a way to help your wrist.
A lot of people don’t think about their body.
Rangers already had a cap implemented, if I understand correctly, and many players recommend Precision now over spamming.
Scoundrel does have somewhat repetitive motions, but I think some of it can be varied a bit depending on distance and situation. Scoundrels also have a shot limit, which helps a little (though I can’t say how much it helps since I naturally vary my motions). Scoundrels are definitely at risk with having to do that flinging motion.
Musketeers have a limit to their shots.
Bards have a limit if they are playing accurately.
Paladins have damage limitations as well with their orbs, though flinging their hammer might be an issue.
Shamans have a limit, though they are probably another class with potential injury due to flinging those orbs (and totems)
Runemage and Warrior are the two classes with no limitation that I know of AND have a high potential for RSI.
Like I said, I don’t think a mana bar would be the best way to do things, I am pro anti-spam mainly due to health reasons, but I also understand that having a mana bar might not help. I also don’t know of any other solution except a cap like Rangers have/had (which makes Rapidity somewhat useless).
There are ways that they could fix this.
One example of a change that could reduce spamming:
Reduce the casts per second possible and increase the damage based on accuracy enough that a player casting one time per second with perfect accuracy can do as much damage as someone casting three times per second with a shortcut. (it could be similar to precision for rangers where the more accurate a spell is, the more damage it deals).
Slightly off topic, but Warriors could have their combos improved to allow for chaining (I tried earlier and it didn’t work).
For example, LRU would be one combo, then maybe RUUL could be another combo. Chaining would mean you could do LRUUL to do combo 1, then combo 2. Then you could combo that with a RU.
This would be a 2 combo repeating chain. You could then improve the effects (perhaps every combo in the chain could be linked so that as you do more and more, some of the effects could keep proccing even if you did other combos or each successive combo in a chain could have a multiplied effect based on chain length) by doing more combos (where repeated combos don’t buff any further or reset the chain) in a chain, thus encouraging a wider variety of strokes. If the strokes are then made more ergonomic so that they don’t cause your body to move in weird ways, that could increase the efficiency. It might even be possible to change a talent to be sort of like Ranger where doing combos at a steady rhythm could provide boosts equivalent to spamming combos.
I read what you said and I’ve read what you have said everywhere else you have posted. all the suggestions you make about making classes limited or increasing certain parts or decreasing certain parts will honestly won’t help. The classes have been balanced, the devs did a good job balancing them, they buff the classes they need to be buffed, they even improve some of the talents. based on what is going on with just the DPS it is fine right now mage is at a good Standpoint it takes hundreds of hours to get as good as the best Mages the health effects are real but are not a serious problem if they were, people would have already been complaining about it. the people that do cast at a high speed like myself and others we have figured out ways to help our bodies to control it. People that play The More Physical requiring classes do understand the risks and they accept them and if you want to be part of the end-game you’ve already understood that it hurt you and if you didn’t want it to hurt your body then you wouldn’t be playing that class.
Sincerely the pro spam
As relatively informed people, yes that makes sense. But when you have younger players that clearly don’t understand (and whose parents may not understand), it does become an issue down the line.
I mean, people have complained about it. A few people have mentioned it to be why they stopped playing Runemages or pick Precision as a ranger or prefer to tank as a Paladin over Warrior (though there are other reasons for that one). Just not everyone is “vocal” about their complaints (just like not everyone is vocal about when good stuff happens). Some people just complain while they play, some people just stop playing, some people just deal with it because they don’t know what caused it, and so on.
I’m not saying to reduce the DPS if you read what I said. I was suggesting ways to, without (at least not significantly) decreasing the DPS, to have alternative, less damaging methods to reach those DPS amounts or at least be close enough to be a viable alternative…
Basically, if we look at it as say the highest speed caster could maybe cast 6 times per second (for the sake of argument) by shortcutting, if you make it so a slower, but more accurate caster casting 1 time per second does 5-6 times the damage with a nearly perfectly accurate cast, the DPS ends up being the same, making it viable to go for accuracy over speed. You could then limit ‘accuracy’ to 1 time per second to prevent people from trying to spam cast with accuracy (perhaps a bar like archery precision).
I’ve been playing for over 6 months on runemage and haven’t suffered any injuries guess I’m lucky cause I play alot haha yeah repetitive fireball spam will most likely cause carpel tunnel after a long time of playing but your the one who bought the VR headset correct? Your the one who is putting your own safety and health at risk why make the devs ruin a rewarding and fun mechanic like spamming fireballs just so you don’t hurt yourself cause you dont think about your own safety?
I guess at the very least, I’d like to see a warning with some basic information about RSIs and some sort of confirmation box that requires you to answer a question to show that you’ve read the information and acknowledge that you are willing to suffer great pain if you aren’t careful.
I still think I’d feel more rewarded for learning to do them accurately instead of shortcutting it or at least have such an option.
As someone who has a lot of hands, wrist, and shoulder issues from ranger, mage, and warrior I highly doubt these would help. If anything, it may just make it worse. It would make people spend even more time mastering, even more, spells or combos.
So here’s one of my half baked 12am thoughts that may make sense. If it doesn’t when I wake up I’ll delete it and write another. A mana bar. Sounds normal. Seems normal. But here’s the thing. Refreshes at a scoundrel gun rate. That’s the problem. I’m not sure how fast or regents exactly but I have a sense and judging by the damage a mage can do, I feel like dps will be far too low. To my knowledge the highest parsing mage is at 120k. The next highest parse (ranger) is at 109. 11k isnt a massive gap, but giving mage a mana bar will not only say screw you to mages who’ve worked hard but it will lower dps. There’s no balancing to be done in a numbers sense. The balance is done, and the devs did an absolutely amazing job at that. A variety in spells would be like “oh you hurt yourself learning those spells, well here’s more for you to hurt yourself with!” In my opinion, mana bar or new spells, neither is the best idea.
I think the majority opinion is that mana bar wouldn’t work, either because it would take too much to rebalance or because it would change dps too much.
Personally, I am surprised at how few ritual type magic there is.
It would undo so much the devs have done.
Mana bar seems pretty simple in my mind. Have a bar… cast a spell bar goes down… have a small mana cost to spells so you can still spam just not enough to melt 4 dungeon mobs before the rest of the group can even get into combat. I’m not seeing how this is hard to grasp, especially for the ^^ fireball spamming mages. And if this fireball spam is so rare and so hard to do why can I find someone doing it literally every time I walk into Highsteppe? I mean look up, see fireball spam, everyday. Literally 50% of my dungeon runs have this issue.
This definitely isn’t a health issue. If you wanna play naked, in a puddle of water in your yard during a lightning storm, that’s fine. It’s not gonna workout well, but you can. This is a game play issue. Mage fireball spam literally ruining dungeons, a huge part of the game for some. Just a sucky thing to see is all hope it can be addressed.
The mage try hards really turned it on after this post went live too rofl. I’m not gonna call anyone out, but posters on this thread really turning up the dungeon greed by spamming all mobs till group can reach them. Good times.
It’s not a mage issue, it’s an end-game fully geared character issue. I can kill just as quick as a mage with my Ranger and Scoundrel, it’s just not as visually impressive. Adding a mana bar is completely against what the idea of Runemage is about. It’s literally the antithesis of the class.
The reason you see tons of fireball spam is because you’re seeing mages practice. Usually the same 5-10 mages.
Thing is that right now, the DPS are balanced for end game (which part of why it can be very difficult to tank in an unsharded dungeon - you often have players with end-game gear and damage with players without end-game gear). Adding a Mana Bar is simple, balancing it is not. A Mana Bar would require a complete rebalancing of the class in order to keep the DPS from changing. It would help slightly healthwise, but the gains would be far too low because all that will change is that mages might spam for a bit then rest.
A mana bar with a low fireball cost would also not stop a runemage from going in and melting mobs before the party can catch up if they are still balanced to be the same DPS (The devs already said that the mage DPS is where they want it to be). The problem there is more how the balancing for unsharded dungeon works, which is a different issue, really. Right now it is fine as long as you don’t get a more or less malicious player or have a newer tank.
That is why I proposed we have mages focus on accuracy over speed (sort of like rangers) so that you can get about the same results from accurate casting as speed casting and potentially even make use of rituals where you cast multiple spells to trigger an effect and make other spells viable as well.
Part of why the stress injuries are so apparent is because players are spam casting the same series of spells at high speeds. Having encouragement to cast those spells slower, but more accurately would encourage players to practice more, which may cause a bit more stress, but at a slower pace, which may reduce the stress of practicing and casting.
Runemage Injury Prevention
- Extend your arm in front of you with your palm up.
- Bend your wrist, pointing your hand toward the floor.
- With your other hand, gently bend your wrist farther until you feel a mild to moderate stretch in your forearm.
- Hold for at least 15 to 30 seconds. Repeat 2 to 4 times before and after spellcasting sessions.
With warrior, they added the charge feature to give an alternative to combo spamming (hold sword out of your view for roughly a second to charge your last combo slightly stronger than performing the combo normally. Every charge is slightly longer than the last until you perform a combo normally again).
With Ranger they added precision with the same idea. Longer charge/time = more damage to make up for each individual swing/arrow you’re not performing.
While those were nice changes (I personally don’t charge combos. I never crunched the numbers, but I’ve had better luck performing them normally) I’m not sure how they could add something similar for mages. A mana bar would slow everything down (long wait = more damage per cast), but it’s the one class that Orbus has been known for. The big “Wow now THIS is a VR class” Any changes to it are met with a lot of resistance and it’s a casting system that’s pretty fragile and easy to screw up. I’d like to see it go back to a more rotational casting system like Oldbus before you could fastcast, but even casting back then caused injury. Fireball spam is the new meta. VR/any physically demanding activity with repetitive movements has the potential to cause injury.