This part needs also to be added the text “most of the ppl on this side” because there are also a some ppl who play mage and are for this change. Just want to make sure both sides are represented as not only 1 type of player.
Eeeehm, is it me not understanding here what you are trying to prove or did you just totally forgot the whole upside of triplicity? It increases all spells by 50% in damage. Your triplicity damage is exactly the same as your normal spell damage xD. Your not proving the difference in damage between triplicity and normal spells, but the difference between using affliction and no affliction in your rotation while removing the DoTs.
Why are you comparing the dps between triplicity and non triplicity phases between two data points? For one to prove something is exponentially growing you need 3 data points at least. Not 2. The second thing is this should not be a comparison between the triplicity phase and the non triplicity phase. But a comparison to the dps as a whole increases how faster you cast.
Also using hard numbers like 19 or 17 spells does not make it easier for ppl to understand what point your making. I would recommend going with easier to use examples like 20 vs 15 vs 10 spells.
Same for the Burn formula don’t see a single damage increase of 50% in the triplicity of the formula xD I am missing also context like what the Y axis is suppose to mean and X axis. And all parts of the formula. I will try to explain what I am seeing with the so called ‘exponential’ increase in dps from triplicity, it is not so much exponential but more additive. (I will write it down probably in a few hours because I need to sit in front of a PC for this…)
This change makes sense. When players broke ranger by shooting crazy fast and killing a level 20 dummy in under 10 seconds-ish, they threw a hard cap on it. They hadn’t expected people to shoot that fast. This is the same thing. You cast faster and do more damage than they expected so they’re finally fixing it. If this was expected, the fix would have been a precaution and not a reaction and no one would even think about it. Hell, be thankful it’s only diminishing returns and not a hardcap.
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not talking about damage between classes. talking about damage between skill levels. If you have good players who are able to do 2-3x damage of the average player, then content for them is too easy or content for the average player is too hard.
Okay lets start with the basics. We are going to start with ignoring any damage of specific spells like doing affliction outside of triplicity rotation only. This makes the case a bit more clear and the logic not dependent on what someone thinks is the best rotation on what cast speed. The effect should not be major on big cast differences. Adding specific spell damage even further supports the triplicity dps increase if we take Archive’s higher dps in triplicity phase rotation (without the triplicity boost) as example. To the following formulas make up the spell independent calculation:
TriplicityMultiplier=1.5
TriplicityUpTime=8
SpellCountToGetTriplicityUp=14
TriplicityUpTimeSpellsPerSecondTriplicityMultiplier = TriplicityTotalSpellsOfDamage
SpellCountToGetTriplicityUp+TriplicityTotalSpellsOfDamage = TotalSpellsOfDamage
SpellCountToGetTriplicityUp + TriplicityUpTime*SpellsPerSecond = TotalCastSpells
TotalSpellsOfDamage/TotalCastSpells = AverageDamageEachSpell
AverageDamageEachSpell*SpellsPerSecond=dps
Okay we got our formula and dps as result. The value we need to change is SpellsPerSecond to compare the results of different cast speeds.
So expectation is that someone casting twice as fast should get twice the dps, right? This is not the case with the current triplicity implementation.
If we fill in the numbers we get:
Adding also here this extra info of more in range of current mages (can’t bother to go to excel for that again xD)
(Elaborating on the triplicity dps increase. That % stands for the added % more damage over the whole rotation caused by triplicity up time. formula: dps / SpellsPerSecond.)
You can see that even though someone casting 1.6 spells per second is casting twice as fast as someone casting 0.8 spells that their dps is MORE then twice as much. Because that person casting twice as fast is getting 8% more value out of triplicity. And this becomes more and more how further your cast speed improves.
So a thing to note here is that the effect is not major until you get to wildly different cast speeds. I initially thought the effect was bigger. But the effect is still there and visible in whole %s. Basically the difference between a +4 weapon and +5 on some cast speed differences. Or even more.
Every other talent in the game gives the effect that you either get a single static damage boost on a hit which is giving the opposite effect, how faster you are in your damage, how less this helps in dps %. Or it will give a static boost like selfish streak giving a default of 8% the whole time. Thus linear. This talent though gives a dps reward on top of a reward in cast speed.
I am aware of the argument “someone casting twice as fast is not someone twice as good in the game”. And that makes sense that you give additional damage boost in that case. I just wanted to point out that it is an exponential growth effect relative to cast speed.
Thinking more about the change I was curious how it will look like when diminishing returns is getting added. Adding a 2% and 3% deminishing return in:
You see the effect of the continued grow of triplicity dps % increase fade away and even go in an opposite direction when getting to the high numbers. If the devs will balance it in such a way that you do not get continued growing dps % boost at a point where really undesired casting speed is in place then this system is not too bad at all on the background numbers.
Sadly, on the mind game this deminishing return is still demotivating and I completely understand that. Changing the Triplicity dps increase to a lower number is not the solution either though. I rather want to see the triplicity talent change in a linear growth like X amount of spells.
Still want to make a connection between the current implementation where time of 8 seconds is applied versus X amount of spells cast. Thinking in the lvl of that difference even if affliction rotations change on different speeds which results in dps drops, those drops will never get below the otherwise linear growth line. Which means over speed increase it is still a continuing dps increase in % over the whole. And thus NOT A LINEAR GROWTH. @Archive
Note: Burnator’s graph was linear because he made X-axis that does not represent linear dps increase steps. 1.9/2.0 is different then 1.8/1.9 even though their steps are both 0.1.
also the main complaint is that work is being invalidated, but nothing has changed in regards to how the faster you cast the more damage you do
and mage is definitly still the highest dps class, its at maximum at 10% for the partial up time 50% buff, so 10% of 50% some of the time, so mabye at max around 5% overall
Scott is my hero
Why is everyone referencing my graff that I played around with at 1-5 in the morning?
No it is not linary, it is a ax/bx. The one arcive links contains afflictions. And the damadge is only valid if you cast faster then 1.6 spells per second, or affliction will start falling off.
Was part of a theory on max possible dps and if properly zoomed would look something like
Bottom is spells per sec, side is in k dpsj
forgot the % increase mb. But the whole point is that it’s not exponential. Idk why people kept shouting out that it’s exponentially higher dmg exponential exponential.
Well it is not linear too… It grows in advantage of extra damage boost the faster you cast.
It is exponential behaviour, doing twice more rewards you with MORE then twice more damage. If it isn’t a X^2 exppnential behaviour it is still more then X^1. It is more complicated then that though. It is % boost flattening if you get too fast. Because of the triplicity non triplicity time balance.
It is a demand function… removing that it contains a part that is linary growth… stacked together.
We always have the same %boosts no matter how fast we cast.
Casting faster only ensures that if we fuck up we can still maintain it.
In an expoential growth it’d be that the faster you cast the higher the %boost number would be.
And speaking of advantange of extra damage boost, it only gives extra damage boost in terms of time spent and not the dmg boost being a bigger number. If you told me that the faster I cast the 30% boost from tiles grows idk lets say from 30% to 90% the faster I cast thats exponential dmg growth. But the fact is that since the dmg% boost is always the same INCLUDING triplicity it never sees exponential growth.
Perhaps you’re saying runemages see the 50% dmg boost more often correct?
With a person who has lets say 100% uptime on triplicity [impossible just the extreme example] They’ll always just have a 50% extra damage boost. The faster they cast doesn’t exponentially increase their damage at that point. The whole notion that because you can have expontial dps increase because of the higher uptimes you can have on it seems slightly absurd to me.
And cast speed is easier to quantify but people forget that getting from 1 cast speed to the other isn’t a linear growth neither. It took me 300 hours to get from 0 casts in 8 seconds to 13 casts in triplicity. Then it took me about 400 hours to add 3 more in triplicity consistently. 400 hours for getting from 13 in triplicity to 16.
Did you try to read my post and the numbers… The % boost of triplicity increases the faster you cast… Why you still denying that?
Also want to say again it is not a X^2 growth no. I have to figure out how this behaviour is called…
Because with selfish streak then lets say it’s a 8% dmg boost do i get 8%, 16% 32%? Or does the boost always remain 8%?
Does triplicity boost always stay about 50%?
I can UPHOLD the boost LONGER but it does NOT mean that BOOST gets stronger.
The faster you can cast the more often you can “procc 50% dmg boost” meaning that the faster the runemage the less downtime of a dmg boost we have.It’s very much like tiles not being procced.
The usefulness of the boost gets stronger yes. The fact that you can make use of the boost for more spells but don’t need more spells to get the boost again is the flaw.
Quantify usefullness.
The dmg boost always the stays the same the faster runecaster is seeing just lesser downtime of the boost.
I dont get how this is expoential
No-one cares about a single hit doing 50% more damage. They care about the resulting dps increase.
Aah ya I understand your struggle now… As I said many posts ago I went away from calling it ‘exponential’. But we should def not call it linear. Unless you want to call the increase of the boost linear, then yes. But increase of dps is not linear. (Maybe a bit hidden, was saying it was more additive then exponential)
Just two things people tend to forget about:
Afflictions have diminishing returns.
Time spent on runemage does not directly reflect on casting speed, infact I believe that its expoential effort to reach the next speed.
It took me 300 hours to get from 0 casts to 13. Breaking that up it took me about 100 hours to get from 0. Casts to 1.5 frosts per second and 1.375 fireballs per second. I then took 200 hours after that to get from,that to 13 in triplicity. These hours are dedicated hours of practice nothing else.
It is a bit inaccarcuate as well to just mention casts per second as thats not accurate to what we really are doing. We are increasing drawing line velocity while maintaining accuracy.
It does not simply require: 100 hours for 1 to the next.
In fact it feels expoentially harder to achieve the next extra spell in triplicity. Perhaps not expoential as Ive stated before when I was new “I think itll take 3x the effort for me to get from 12 to 13”
200…
Let’s make this a game!
DPS analysis (exponential or linear) = Shot, yes even that last bit drip
Use of term Exponential = Double shot, no salt if you doin’ tequila
User of term Nerf = Sip your beer, twice if its a good beer
Stating how much (Iverson) practice one did = double sip, pause, sip again
Condescending remark = Chug a beer, smash the can if it’s a PBR
250 Comments = Go get another 12 pack or handle
500 Comments = Go to bed, this thread is overdone like yo’ momma’s meatloaf!
This topic is, as a whole, absolutely ridiculous. No one should ever be capped based on the effort they have put in to perfecting a craft. If you’re so worried about this DPS diferential, maybe consider shortening the time it takes for a scoundrel/muskateer to charge their weapon or as Archive said, “Place the red plates more often for a Ranger.” It still requires great skill to consistently hit those red plates and it takes a lot of skill to consistently hit markets with a Rank V shot as a Scoundrel.
The most ridiculous thing about this entire situation is the fact that they are considering to start the decrease after the 5th spell!?!? This is not sensical at all. I mean an unskilled, non practiced mage can hit 5 spells without question. A practiced mage can start hitting 10 after a couple weeks of practice and a skilled mage after hundred of hours can start hitting 15+ spells in Triplicity.
There is no question as to the fact that the DEVs are going to do what they are going to do. But please maybe take I to consideration starting the diminishing damage % after 10-15 spells. To start this after 5 spells is absolutely absurd… Every mage is going to be upset about this but maybe they won’t be as upset is you consider raising the number of spells casted to a higher minimum… I mean seriously I would consider 14 to be absolutely fair but anything less than that is a disgrace to all mages that have spent hundreds of hours (actually 30+ DAYS of gametime) at least to perfect the class with the highest skill ceiling… I’m disgusted that you would consider such a thing and all mages find the chosen number of “5” to be insulting.
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