Wilds Chest / Invisibility Potion


#41

I feel like this whole thread is some misplaced aggression.

If you’re a player who wanted more PvP offerings in Orbus, one relatively unstructured fight every 10 hours probably isn’t going to do that for you. For that you’ll probably need a more robust arena/battleground system with rewards and a vendor. See Wow’s PvP system as an example.

If you’re upset that EK is always getting the chest consider two things. 1 we tally hard for that chest and it’s a major effort for us so please don’t dismiss all our hard work as unfair advantages. Second the invisibility potions are expensive so every time we use them in the wilds it severely reduces the amount of profit we get out of the chest.

Forgive my errors please I wrote this on my phone.


#42

This is true for PVP in any game that exists, but I think the real reason nobody shows up anymore is because of the many times we won while not having advantageous numbers.

People on both sides had fun when numbers were equal (or we were down by a few) at the beginning. But I guess the fun wears off if you aren’t trading wins.


#43

So I wasn’t sure if this thread was going to go toxic or not, but while there have been some close calls it’s stayed mostly constructive, so thank you, I appreciate that.

Regarding the specific concerns outlined here, I think the Invisibility Potion being “overpowered” is just a symptom of a larger problem, and that is that PvP right now has a very low time to kill. When people can one-shot each other, or 2v2 battles are over in 10 seconds, to me that is the main problem. Since you lose Invisibility as soon as you deal damage, the potion itself is overpowered right now because that first shot is so very important and decisive. There needs to be mechanics in the game that either prevent extreme bursting down of a single player, or we need to just somehow slow down the damage in PvP combat so that if someone ambushes you like that, it’s an advantage but not an impossible one to overcome.

At the same time, and I think this is key, one of the main things I think we’ve learned throughout our experience designing OrbusVR is that open-world factionless PvP is basically impossible to balance. As others in this thread have pointed out, if you have a 10v10 battle going on it’s pretty neat and interesting, but if it’s 4v2 or something, then obviously it’s going to be lopsided and un-fun for the people on the losing side. And since it’s just ad-hoc, there’s really no good way to force it to be balanced and fair. At the end of the day if someone brings enough people to the party, they’re going to win. The same thing applies to in-game advantages like gear level or use of potions. If you have one side willing to invest a lot more into the fight than the other, then it’s going to give them a big advantage. Some people would argue those are features rather than bugs of World PvP, though.

Someone else asked, why don’t more people show up other than EK and ABC to the chest fight? I think the answer to that is because if they did, they would just be killed. You have to have a Fellowship team right now in order to participate in this PvP, and there’s no incentive for the high-end players to help out a fresh 20 who comes to the fight. That’s where in other MMOs factions come into play, since it gives you a team to be on even if you’re new to the game and aren’t in a top-tier PvE guild. For example, imagine if instead of the Trickster Chest being a single drop for a single person, instead it’s something built around controlling the chest for 1 minute, and then everyone in your faction gets a “personal loot roll” and can open it for the next 15 minutes. Then there would be much stronger incentives for other people to show up and fight over it, and it wouldn’t just be the same two teams every time.

However, even with all of that, it still might not be fair since the factions may end up unbalanced, or it might just devolve into “whichever faction has more people show up wins every time.” If we want fair and balanced PvP combat, then we will have to implement arenas or battlegrounds, so we can control that the same number of people are on each team every time, control gear variance, control what can or can’t be used during the battle, etc. That doesn’t mean World PvP isn’t worth having by any means, but I’m just pointing out, if your primary measure of whether or not PvP is fun is if both sides of a battle have a “fighting chance to win” (which is perfectly valid to want), then you should realize that it will never be possible to guarantee that in Open World PvP. So we can and should introduce mechanics to help make it better, but it’s never going to reach the point of being a guarantee.

Well, anyway, those are my thoughts. In the short-term, we will be making a change so that if you loot something Invisibility wears off, because I agree it makes no sense to allow that, and we will be experimenting with some different methods of increasing the TTK of PvP in general. In the long term, we are probably moving toward a system where there are factions in the game for PvP purposes that you can join, and we are going to be working to introduce more organized PvP Battlegrounds as well.


PvP is dead ingame
#44

Have you given anymore consideration to wilds mats being avalable outside of a pvp area? Maybe world boss drops, shard drops, Days garden idea, raid drops. Especally now with pots being so strong for raids.


#45

@Riley_D note that; after your released the invis pot change, the person who loots the chest just uses another invisibility potion immediately thereby disappearing and jumping off again. It hasn’t really made any difference to be honest.

To add; some individuals regularly use the invisibility potion to affliction people from behind and precast an aoe before the affliction hits. Obviously this is ridiculous and overpowered too.

Basically this, among some other things you mentioned is why i don’t really bother with the chest anymore.


#46

Just a thought, but I’ve never gotten the chest, seen it, or even been in the wilds for that matter, but have read through the entire discussion. What if the chest was, instead of fixed to one location, spawned randomly in different locations in the wilds each time? This would at least give people who aren’t exploiting invisibility a chance to go out into the wilds and hunt for it.


#47

I think it would make it too much random chance whether or not you get it. It would also increase the usefulness of invis as people would have to be split up across the wilds to try and secure it and you only have to wait a couple minutes to escape as a bandit. The idea with it being on a set spawn is so that people have a reason to go and fight over it and expect company. Although, randomizing the timer instead a bit like adding a +/- 10 minutes random time on spawn would make it interesting. People wouldn’t be able to plan invis use and snipe it as easily.


#48

having it be random would actually make it be more difficult to counter invisibility, as it adds a bunch of unknowns to the factor. with it being in the same spot everytime, it allows u to know exactly when and where a invisible player would be if they were trying to get the chest, and basing everything off of that you can make counter plays. the only time a invisible player can do a ton of damage is if they are a mage, which has its own flaws as well. if you are paying attention, it is easy enough to hear the spell fly through the air at you, allowing you to dodge and counter attack, if you are a archer get spamming(i have done this many times against other invis people, lots of arrows = lots of hit chance), and if u are a mage get arcane missiling in the direction where the spell came from. if a archer attacks u, he has 1 big burst which cant kill u instantly unless u are a mage, in which case u should be arcane missiling already to prevent that. if u are a musket, meh just heal through it what can they do?
if u then take it to a random place in the wilds, you are left with uncertainty if you are the only one there because u are alone, or if there is someone invis but since it may or may not even be the right spot you dont know where the chest would even spawn and cant take apropiate countermeasures against it


#49

Fair enough, I mainly just saw it as a solution to possibly negate the use of invis potions in every fight over the chest since you’d spend your time looking for it rather than camping and waiting. Another thought I had was the potion should be nerfed in general to where like, yeah the player goes invisible but if a player looks close enough they can see a certain effect, kinda like “Active camo” from the halo franchise.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/d/d0/Stealth_Elite.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070301211000
Maybe something slightly less obvious as ^ but you get the idea.


#50

I personally think that if it wasn’t for invisibility, it would be more fun to have a random location instead of a fixed, but you are right, with how invisibility is right now, it really doesn’t make much sense, but as you can see from the discussions, even if there are good suggestions, they are being turned down because it comes to “it would be more difficult to counter invisibility”. Right now I just really think invisibility is just way too OP and does not really fit into the game’s system, however others might think differently


#51

It’s powerfull, but considering the ressources + time investment, is it really overpowered ? I mean, if it is OP, why doesn’t everyone walk around with one on there belt ?

I agree that invisibility provide a great advantage, but maybe it is balanced considering the cost of it.


#52

You are right, let me rephrase it: it makes it harder for the devs to put further PvP improvements into place IMO, as finding the right balance is not easy, and the most common issue I’ve seen that has been brought up was “invisibility potion”. Also yes, it is costly, and not many people can afford it, but at the same time I have to also disagree with the aging timer of it, as older players (who already have dram) will have a way too big advantage, as for newer players even if they can collect the materials needed, it takes way too long to age the potion that catching up will be close to impossible. Sure, you can say this for all the other potions too, but they are not giving as big an advantage in PvP as invisibility potion.


#53

great reply, thanks for explaining further your point of view :slightly_smiling_face:


#54

So you find it odd that mages virtually always choose to appear next to/behind someone and blow them up, rather than trying to attack them at range where one could easily hear their spell and have time to dodge it? …because nobody does that.

How often has this happened to you? Im curious because afaik nobody in Alphabet has ever attempted to use an invis pot like that. There are very few instances where anyone in Alphabet has used invis pots at all… Are there hordes of other fellowships/players that show up for the chest and do this? I am personally at more than half of the chest spawns and ive never seen any other fellowships show up, let alone actually try to contest with pots. EK uses these pots regularly… thats your guild… and this is not how you choose to use them. It just seems like an odd/disingenuous/dubious claim to act like they are easy to counter, and cite scenarios that never happen as evidence.

While this is true, it would also increase the amount of time people would have to be standing around waiting, and that sounds worse.


#55

Yes. How much it costs in time/resources is not a factor that negates if something is OP/broken. It does not cost so much that one could not use this tactic EVERY time if they really wanted.


#56

Yet I know little to no people who does it… Cause there is really only 2 people pumping potions atm.

Actually if you look at the leaderboard one could say that potion brewing overvall takes too much ressources, cause no one does it. And everyone makes sure to not drink them for no reason.

Let’s say the chest go more popular and a 5 people are needed to defend it. Could anyone really produce 2 X 5 invis potions per day ?

And than the next question, if someone was crazy enough to pump 10 invis per day to win it, are the shards really worth it ?


#57

Remember the time someone tried to argue that it was ok if North Korea obtains nuclear weapons because nuclear weapons take time to produce, and cost a lot of money? Me either.


#58

I think you overexagerate the power of invis pot. I defended myself from people using them and each time if we where more than 2 We where able to win or at least give a good fight. They can only “garante” one kill. And even that is if the attack crits and oneshot you or you are far from a healer.


#59

Of course people try and counter a strat that is a counter to them, that’s just simple tactics. If u keep moving and don’t let there be any one spot that is right behind u and close to u that u aren’t wary of of course you will be hit from there, and I never said we didn’t use them just that it can be countered
On the topic of other guilds using them of course there have been, but I have refrained from naming specific people(after knocking them out of invis I can tel who they are) and fellowships because it is against the forum policy’s to call ot specific people or groups


#60

I’m not EK. I go for the chest whenever I’m available. I’m a mage that prefers attacking from a distance, trying to jump all over the place myself. I’ve successfully knocked people out of invisibility and killed them. I’ve also been attacked by an invisible warrior who suddenly appeared (it was hilariously jarring) and I was killed after a bit. I definitely die more often than not when I’m going for the chest, but I’m there for the fight. Invisibility used by the opposing team or my team has never bothered me. I also remember this one time it took like 5 minutes for 4-5 dps classes to kill a lone musketeer :rofl: I was also present when there was about 5 of my team, about a dozen of the other, and we still won (we did not expect to win!) So, from my experience, I disagree invisibility ruins anything (I think the surprise is fun, even when it is not to my benefit) and I disagree that those with the most numbers win (since I’ve personally witnessed those with lesser numbers win a fair amount of the times, my team or not). Also, when I’m involved in the battles, it always seems to go on for at least a few minutes. Another time I kept accidentally shooting a teammate not in my party (before raid parties) because with all the jumping around everyone was doing, it just kept working out that way :sweat_smile:

I do want going for the chest to be the most fun it can be for the largest amount of people that can be accommodated. To me, the chest is just a regular excuse to go fight over something; I don’t particularly care what. I look forward to it becoming more like a “red vs blue” fight, and why not pick teams before the faction system becomes a thing? It doesn’t have to be fellowship A vs fellowship B. Gather an army and come for a free-for-all. I’m actually surprised I haven’t seen more “chaotic evil” playstyles of a group appearing just to mess with things. I also enjoy the strategy that goes into it and how the strategies need to evolve as we come up with more ideas.

P.S. My favorite memory to date is an invisible player from a PK fellowship that snuck past all of us and our countermeasures to kill the person on my team guarding the chest :joy: